How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[Harmon Rabb]

Watch until the end.

But seriously nice to see that bad weather obviously also impairs the bad guys in their own country, not just the good guys defending their country. 

 

 

Edited November 22, 2023 by Harmon Rabb

[dan/california]

21 minutes ago, Harmon Rabb said:

Watch until the end.

But seriously nice to see that bad weather obviously also impairs the bad guys in their own country, not just the good guys defending their country. 

 

 

Anybody know what was on the back of that thing? 

[fry30]

1 hour ago, Harmon Rabb said:

But seriously nice to see that bad weather obviously also impairs the bad guys in their own country, not just the good guys defending their country. 

I don't think it's just the weather that's impairing those folks. 

[Battlefront.com]

9 hours ago, LongLeftFlank said:

3.  This is just as advertised, a 'day in the life', several long GoPro sequences, unedited. No 'dramatic' action takes place; the section doesn't leave their trenches until they remount at the end and never see the enemy (he's in grenade range at one point), but guys do get wounded (female medic). Skip to daylight at 2:30 or so.

 

That was a half our of my time well spent watching that. Thanks for posting it!

 

Stev

[LongLeftFlank]

This is about more than F16s.

Thread, with some useful comments:

https://nitter.net/Tatarigami_UA/status/1726666114124403025#m

 

 

[cesmonkey]

 

 

[Kraft]

The Dutch have made very sizeable contributions, this however seems to come to an end now with (another) anti-EU alt right wing populist getting elected in Europe.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-election-dutch-wilders-idUSBREA3G1CS20140417/

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Kraft

[LongLeftFlank]

15 minutes ago, Kraft said:

The Dutch have made very sizeable contributions, this however seems to come to an end now with (another) anti-EU alt right wing populist getting elected in Europe.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-eu-election-dutch-wilders-idUSBREA3G1CS20140417/

 

I don't disbelieve you, and my interest in politics is limited (and arguing it here is fairly pointless and neverending), but could you perhaps provide a substantive Wilders quote on Ukraine later than 2014, and preferably later than Feb 2022?

[Zeleban]

8 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

I don't disbelieve you, and my interest in politics is limited (and arguing it here is fairly pointless and neverending), but could you perhaps provide a substantive Wilders quote on Ukraine later than 2014, and preferably later than Feb 2022?

How about this quote?

Edited November 23, 2023 by Zeleban

[Zeleban]

 

Europe is one step closer to resuming friendship with Russia. I wonder what the results of the elections in France and Germany will be. I'm not talking about the USA

[LongLeftFlank]

10 minutes ago, Zeleban said:

How about this quote?

Thanks, but not recent enough. I want to hear in his own words -- and since the war began -- not filtered through the lens of people who hate his guts for other reasons.

****

I mean, most people here know that I identify as 'conservative' (albeit that probably doesn't mean what you might think it does), and I utterly fail to see why any 'conservative' would favour Putin's insane delusions of Russian Manifest Destiny, or his decaying mafia petrostate, over the vigorous, hybrid and above all recognisably European society of stubbornn brilliant improvisers and tinkerers that Ukraine has turned out to be.

....It's as though the French crown were to look at the American Patriots after 1779 and say, you know what, you've done surprisingly well, annihilating Burgoyne's army and denying the redcoats the hinterlands and all that, huzzah for you. But you know those long campaigns in New Jersey and the Carolinas really didn't go as well as we all hoped, plus Rochambeau lost a lot of kit up in Providence.

So isn't it time you stopped wasting blood and treasure and sued for peace now? Hey, maybe King George will grant you 'those rights of Englishmen' that still looked good back in 1775.

Edited November 23, 2023 by LongLeftFlank

[Kraft]

17 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

I don't disbelieve you, and my interest in politics is limited (and arguing it here is fairly pointless and neverending), but could you perhaps provide a substantive Wilders quote on Ukraine later than 2014, and preferably later than Feb 2022?

If you take Reuters word for it it would spare me going through his cesspool twitter

Quote

Wilders has repeatedly said the Netherlands should stop providing arms to Ukraine, as he says the country needs the weapons to be able to defend itself.

Quote

A fan of former U.S. President Donald Trump and Hungary's eurosceptic Prime Minister Viktor Orban, the vocally anti-Islam, anti-EU Wilders has also vowed to slash Dutch payments to the European Union and block the entrance of any new members, including Ukraine.

Btw, I consider any anti-EU politician as harmful, as this weakens Europe as a whole and strenghens US (indifferent) and China, thereby Russia.

[LongLeftFlank]

1 minute ago, Kraft said:

If you take Reuters word for it it would spare me going through his cesspool twitter

Btw, I consider any anti-EU politician as harmful, as this weakens Europe as a whole and strenghens US (indifferent) and China, thereby Russia.

Res ipse loquitur, sorry.

Again, I'm willing to believe he hasn't changed his spots, but this is all hearsay.

[Kraft]

10 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Res ipse loquitur, sorry.

Again, I'm willing to believe he hasn't changed his spots, but this is all hearsay.

I went through the PVVs election promises, under defense on page 36, they say in rosey terms no aid to Ukraine to stop islamic terror in the netherlands. And appearently because the country needs to defend itself too

Add on top his Ukraine is divided and its all the EU/NATOs fault anyway from some years ago

For me that is enough direct evidence. 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Kraft

[LongLeftFlank]

1 minute ago, Kraft said:

I went through the PVVs election promises, under defense, they say in rosey terms no aid to Ukraine to stop islamic terror in the netherlands. And appearently because the country needs to defend itself

For me that is enough direct evidence.

Fair enough, and I'm happy to drop it, but forgive me if I don't rush for the smelling salts.

[Zeleban]

12 minutes ago, Kraft said:

If you take Reuters word for it it would spare me going through his cesspool twitter

Btw, I consider any anti-EU politician as harmful, as this weakens Europe as a whole and strenghens US (indifferent) and China, thereby Russia.

Exactly, I am sure that soon there will be more and more such leaders in Europe. First Orban, then Robert Fico, now Wilders, in my opinion the trend is obvious. It seems Europeans want to be friends with Putin more and more

 

[Carolus]

Quote

Thanks, but not recent enough. I want to hear in his own words -- and since the war began -- not filtered through the lens of people who hate his guts for other reasons.

 

****

 

I mean, most people here know that I identify as 'conservative' (albeit that probably doesn't mean what you might think it does), and I utterly fail to see why any 'conservative' would favour Putin's insane delusions of Russian Manifest Destiny, or his decaying mafia petrostate, over the vigorous, hybrid and above all recognisably European society of stubbornn brilliant improvisers and tinkerers that Ukraine has turned out to be.

 

Hey now, not all crazy racists are conservative, so why would you think that Wilders is one?

Wilders and his party are not conservative, he is a populist or neo-fascist whose party program is mostly filled with demands the Dutch constitution doesn't even allow. 

Fascists are not really conservative, even though conservatives tend to be the first to align with them and help them into power because they tend to be the more emotional and gullible parts of society.

Original fascism is an eclectic mix of writings from a wide spectrum of political views (Italian fascist theory was created by communist, socialist, nationalist, reactionist, esoteric, mysticist and dadaist writers and who knows who else I forgot to list), and the new post-millenium neo-fascism didn't get any less weird and inconsistent.

That is why Wilders can be an outspoken supporter of militant zionism and yet feel closely aligned with neo-rashism and not feel one iota of cognitive dissonance. Or why Meloni in Italy can be quite Ukraine-friendly despite hugging a Mussolini body-pillow at night.

Now, if the coalition negotiations in the Netherlands put Wilders in the seat of the prime minister, the relevance for Ukraine is mostly through the EU council.

Hungary's Orban is another of Putin's stooges in the EU, and quite openly so. When the EU is trying to sanction a country, it needs the agreement of all other countries except the target country. Thanks to the populist conservative PiS in Poland, Orban had had an ally who would always block any sanctions against Hungary as long as Hungary blocks any EU sanctions against the authoritarian policies of the PiS in Poland. But the winds changed in Poland and Orban looked like he would end up alone.

With Wilders he would have an ally again who keeps the EU off his back while he works on further turning Hungary into a pre-invasion Russia, a hollowed out democracy where rule of law has collapsed. 

And that means the positive Ukraine policies of the EU can become really, really delayed or prevented, as with two veto countries which protect each other, the EU structure becomes paralyzed. It was never designed to deal with this situation.

Edited November 23, 2023 by Carolus

[The_Capt]

21 minutes ago, Zeleban said:

Exactly, I am sure that soon there will be more and more such leaders in Europe. First Orban, then Robert Fico, now Wilders, in my opinion the trend is obvious. It seems Europeans want to be friends with Putin more and more

 

I enjoy a good Europe bashing day as much as the next guy, but it would appear this guy is looking at a coalition situation:

https://www.cbc.ca/news/world/netherlands-election-wilders-1.7037301

Not sure how a far right loonie pulls that off.  So I am thinking dysfunction, not “running into Putin’s arms”.  

[Beleg85]

55 minutes ago, Carolus said:

Hungary's Orban is another of Putin's stooges in the EU, and quite openly so. When the EU is trying to sanction a country, it needs the agreement of all other countries except the target country. Thanks to the populist conservative PiS in Poland, Orban had had an ally who would always block any sanctions against Hungary as long as Hungary blocks any EU sanctions against the authoritarian policies of the PiS in Poland. But the winds changed in Poland and Orban looked like he would end up alone.

Correct, however for people less interested in European mechanisms and in the context of rest of the post, worth to add that even PiS- ruled PL never voted with Orban on any anti-Ukrainian practices; to the contrary, it made a lot to soften Hungarian stance in matter of financing for Ukrainian military effort (as far as can be done in his case). Also it is not precise to say that  are anti-European; they are anti-centralized EU aka federalized. And not the only ones.

PL never was, and never will be pro-Russian. Netherlands now in theory can. Wilders may be a problem for Ukraine, especially if political sanitary cordon around him will break but it seems he will not be powerful enough to form coalition anyway. Probably he will stick to his core of anti-immigrant policies? And Dutch state already took obligations and curse with rest of EU, so I wouldn't expect any violent changes here too. So no reason to despair for now; this type of politicians is always loud before elections, afterwards they suddenly become more nuanced.

Here some summ up by Dutch journo, but it is twitter so treat with grain of salt:

https://twitter.com/bencoates1/status/1727608887916818612

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by Beleg85

[LongLeftFlank]

1 hour ago, Carolus said:

Conservatives tend to be the first to align with them and help them into power because they tend to be the more emotional and gullible parts of society.

Umm, I don't know your lived experience, but mine teaches me that no sector of society -- any society -- is any more or less emotional and gullible than any other, overall.

Other than the benevolent, wise and rational philosopher rulers *I* voted for, of course. (Assuming I had in fact voted in the last 30 years)

Edited November 23, 2023 by LongLeftFlank

[The_Capt]

7 minutes ago, LongLeftFlank said:

Umm, I don't know your lived experience, but mine teaches me that no sector of society -- any society -- is any more or less emotional and gullible than any other, overall.

Other than the benevolent, wise and rational philosopher rulers *I* voted for, of course. (Assuming I had in fact voted in the last 30 years)

Are you a nihilistic-liberal conservative?  Or maybe a hippie-who-grew-up conservative?  You gotta whole chaotic neutral vibe going. 

[Caspase]

re: the Netherlands.
Wilders has about 25% of all votes, he needs at least two other parties to form a majority.
Most likely scenario is with NSC and VVD. The VVD was the previous 'ruling party'.
So it would probably be more of a status quo with extra right wing leanings.

In any case, the chances are very high that the current government will remain in charge for at least a year while the new government is being formed.

[LongLeftFlank]

1 minute ago, The_Capt said:

Are you a nihilistic-liberal conservative?  Or maybe a hippie-who-grew-up conservative?  You gotta whole chaotic neutral vibe going. 

(and yes, I celebrated Canadian Thanksgiving a month ago as well) 

You tell me what you are first, if you're so interested.

Actually, don't, the label game is boring and OT and interminable. Nobody cares.

[Kinophile]

1 hour ago, Carolus said:

Fascists are not really conservative, even though conservatives tend to be the first to align with them and help them into power because they tend to be the more emotional and gullible parts of society.

Ease up there, bud. No need to slash and burn. I'm a liberal,  with conservative views on certain things.  I know a very liberal woman who is quite emotional and now apparently also very gullible (she's starting to spout that the Oct 7th attacks were fake). Full bore liberal going full bore tinfoil hat wearing. 

It's like that old chestnut by people who say they're relaxed,  don't get upset and are always rational.  Sure, until someone finds their button - that particular thing they truly care about - and mashes down hard.  Then Mr Cool Dude becomes Mr Raging A$$h*le real fast. 

Isn't everyone emotional,  across all spectrums? And everyone is gullible to what they want to hear that satisfies their psychological state, be they liberal conservative, fascist,  libertarian,  etc., no?

Edited November 23, 2023 by Kinophile

[Kinophile]