How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[BlackMoria]

1 hour ago, MSBoxer said:

In my opinion, if you go to the far end of either side of the political spectrum you get nut bags who need to be watched.  Whether it is the white supremacists on the right or Antifa on the left we have groups that are ready and, in some cases, far too willing to resort to violence and intimidation to push their twisted beliefs on everyone else.

Yeah.  Frickin' vegans.   I can't eat a hamburger in public anymore without some snide or snarky comment about me eating an animal.     Ok... a bit of a joke by me.   Maybe a bit of hyperbole on my part as well,  But that is one uptight group that takes themselves far too seriously and they are as obnoxious as hell.   

[chuckdyke]

Some improvised spotting and targeting. 

 

[Beleg85]

Some details regarding Russian defences from raid- it seems one of main roads to Belgorod from UA was guarded by platoon-sized conscripts.

 

[dan/california]

7 minutes ago, Beleg85 said:

Some details regarding Russian defences from raid- it seems one of main roads to Belgorod from UA was guarded by platoon-sized conscripts.

 

 

2 hours ago, Ultradave said:

The cynic/sarcastic wit in me might ask, "With what, exactly?"

Dave

Ultradave is looking more correct by the minute. I am rapidly getting the impression Ukraine should have pushed a bit harder, and gotten into grad range of some of the more or less military infrastructure around Belgord. Nothing make the news like a burning tank farm/oil refinery.

[sburke]

anyone who thinks we don't have a fascist problem because folks won't take down their confederate flag to put up a nazi one does not understand that in America, that confederate flag IS the nazi one.  Not specially a response to your comment Steve, but just to point out for folks that think Americans don't blatantly display fascist trappings ought to think twice.  

Getting this back to Ukraine, if I was in the UA and someone from America came and told me they were concerned about some unit in the UA having a patch that resembled a Nazi symbol I'd be scratching my head about that confederate flag I saw on TV being marched through the halls of congress on 1/6.

Quote

 

"From the 1870s [during] the period of the first Klan up until the 1960s, nearly 5,000 people were lynched in the U.S.," Pizzo continues. "Those are the ones that could be confirmed. 72% of those people were Black. The white people...were lynched for reasons related to activities connected to Black people. This was a system of racial public terror. This was not some fly-by-night thing happening in the woods. These were public events where trains were literally ran to the site, carnival barkers showed up, concessions were sold. These were massive, public events in Georgia, Virginia, and the North as well. This was going on year after year after year. It was a public culture of terror designed to over-awe Black citizens who had been emancipated but whose status was essentially declaimed during this entire period."

"There were also these enormous violent explosions, like in 1917 in East St. Louis...Tulsa in 1921...the most grotesque of these was in 1919. In 1919, there's a huge wave of Black activism and unionization that is responded to with extreme terror and violence." The Elaine Massacre in Phillips County Arkansas would result in anywhere from 100 to 300 civilians dead after "the National Guard comes in and puts down what they view as a Black uprising, but what is essentially lynch violence escalating into mass violence," Pizzo says. 

Although eugenics and non-consensual experimentation are often thought of outside of American soil, the U.S. is no stranger to the two practices. "The 20s and 30s are the golden age of eugenics in the United States," Pizzo explains. "The James Whitman book Hitler's American Model, in grueling grim detail, lays out all the ways the Nazis viewed the U.S. as the model to be emulated. They sent fact-finding missions here to study race law in Virginia or Alabama to figure out how to exclude people who had been fellow citizens -- in this case, Jews -- from communal life. This is not me saying Virginia causes the Nazis; that would be overstating the influence of the U.S. But it's clear that Germany at least saw the U.S. as a fellow traveler on this path. There were complaints in Congress that the Nazis had left us behind. We were the leading country in the world in terms of forced sterilization and eugenics measures against immigrants or other undesirables, and now the Nazis are leaving us behind."

 

The History of Democracy: Fascist Movements in U.S. History | WKMS

 

[DesertFox]

MoD in Moscow. Big smoking party going on, or they elected a new Pope. Dunno...

 

 

[sburke]

17 minutes ago, BlackMoria said:

Yeah.  Frickin' vegans.   I can't eat a hamburger in public anymore without some snide or snarky comment about me eating an animal.     Ok... a bit of a joke by me.   Maybe a bit of hyperbole on my part as well,  But that is one uptight group that takes themselves far too seriously and they are as obnoxious as hell.   

well I tend to cut them some slack.  I mean there I am eating bacon and you KNOW they really want some of that bacon.... 

[sburke]

3 minutes ago, DesertFox said:

MoD in Moscow. Big smoking party going on, or they elected a new Pope. Dunno...

 

 

smoke is awfully white.  Almost like steam.  maybe the lighting, but it looks off.

[dan/california]

3 minutes ago, sburke said:

well I tend to cut them some slack.  I mean there I am eating bacon and you KNOW they really want some of that bacon.... 

Author, chef and TV personality, Anthony Bourdain is known to have a special dislike for vegans and vegetarians. In his book Kitchen Confidential, he wrote “Vegetarians, and their Hezbollah-like splinter faction, the vegans, are a persistent irritant to any chef worth a d*&^.

[Kinophile]

30 minutes ago, BlackMoria said:

Yeah.  Frickin' vegans.   I can't eat a hamburger in public anymore without some snide or snarky comment about me eating an animal.     Ok... a bit of a joke by me.   Maybe a bit of hyperbole on my part as well,  But that is one uptight group that takes themselves far too seriously and they are as obnoxious as hell.   

For me, its the kind of people who 1) developed this brand:

and 2) actually buy it's ridiculously overpriced and underwhelming c-rap.

Edited May 24, 2023 by Kinophile

[JonS]

2 hours ago, MSBoxer said:

In my opinion, if you go to the far end of either side of the political spectrum you get nut bags who need to be watched.  Whether it is the white supremacists on the right or Antifa on the left we have groups that are ready and, in some cases, far too willing to resort to violence and intimidation to push their twisted beliefs on everyone else.

Those antifa folks are the worst.

I mean, imagine being opposed to fascism. The nerve of some people.

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by JonS

[Splinty]

2 minutes ago, JonS said:

Those antics folks are the worst.

I mean, imagine being opposed to fascism. The nerve of some people.

 

I think your autocorrect doesn't like Antifa. OTOH being opposed to anarchists doesn't make someone a fascist either.

[sburke]

13 minutes ago, Splinty said:

I think your autocorrect doesn't like Antifa. OTOH being opposed to anarchists doesn't make someone a fascist either.

are you saying auto correct is not a fascist?  I dunno sometimes it really feels oppressive.  

[Seminole]

16 minutes ago, JonS said:

Those antifa folks are the worst.

I mean, imagine being opposed to fascism. The nerve of some people.

 

It’s less the opposition to fascism and more the adherence to other unsavory ends of the spectrum:

 

The antifa movement has existed in different eras and incarnations, dating back to Antifaschistische Aktion, from which the moniker Antifa came. It was set up by the then-Stalinist Communist Party of Germany (KPD) during the late history of the Weimar Republic. 

 

Imagine being opposed to communists and fascists.  The nerve of some people.

[MSBoxer]

20 minutes ago, JonS said:

Those antifa folks are the worst.

I mean, imagine being opposed to fascism. The nerve of some people.

 

Opposing fascism is great, the problem is when you deem anything you disagree with as fascism and use violence and vandalism to prove your point you kinda start to smell like a brown shirt.

Just as those that claim anything they disagree with is the work of Satan kinda lose the whole point of Christianity.

 

[JonS]

Huh. I wasn't aware that commies still a problem, to the extent where they had any meaningful influence or grasp on any levers of power, or were out rioting and killing people on the street.

[billbindc]

11 minutes ago, JonS said:

Those antifa folks are the worst.

I mean, imagine being opposed to fascism. The nerve of some people.

 

I have to say...and this is coming from the center left...that a lot of the antifa folks in DC were completely obnoxious. The BLM folks were what we would call around here 'good protesters'. They did their thing, acted coherently and didn't randomly attack whatever for the thrill of it...the burning of the lobby of the AFL-CIO being a particularly egregious example of the tendency to burn for the fun of it tendency of some of the Antifa folks. A lot of them looked like teenagers burning off covid isolation.

But...neither one had anything like the sheer nastiness of the radical right wingers. Patches like RWDS (that stands for "Right Wing Death Squad") and Confederate flags were routine and far more common than outright Nazi regalia. People telling my neighbors with a pride flag at their house that they "will come back for you later". Or the 100 or so Proud Boys that charged a police line my kid and I were behind because they were trying to get at BLM folks on the plaza on 16th Street behind us. Oh...and did I mention the guys with the long guns that got arrested at one of my places of business?

We got to see the monster with it's mask off...because they were sure that they were going to get a pardon sooner or later as they would tell DC MPD who had to deal with them...and I would strongly suggest you all take it seriously. Out of patriotism if nothing else. Nobody benefits more from it than Vladimir Putin.

[Fenris]

An encouraging report from the Graivoron where our glorious forces have destroyed and driven off the terrorist saboteurs. 

 

[Kinophile]

26 minutes ago, billbindc said:

 

We got to see the monster with it's mask off...because they were sure that they were going to get a pardon sooner or later as they would tell DC MPD who had to deal with them...and I would strongly suggest you all take it seriously. Out of patriotism if nothing else. Nobody benefits more from it than Vladimir Putin.

Literally how Hitler was able to bend the political process. If you know you'll get a pardon/won't be prosecuted then you'll do anything, which the Big Man can then use.

The trick is between thinking you'll get a pardon and actually having the guy in power follow through. Hitler did, and institutionalized that immunity. Other, more modern people didn't have the attention span to actually do the long-term, detailed  work for that kind of system-wide effect and so US democracy skirted the abyss,  instead of plunging in. 

Despite the worries about Azov et al,  fascism is a long way off in Ukraine. The Army seems to tolerate the Azov movement but is very firmly in control and, from what I can see,  knows exactly where to draw the line. Still,  it's never a good look to have soldiers supporting fascist tropes. I can see Blinken pushing for further marginalization and reduction of military units with fascist symbology. Not good optics in Congress... 

Edited May 25, 2023 by Kinophile

[sburke]

26 minutes ago, Fenris said:

An encouraging report from the Graivoron where our glorious forces have destroyed and driven off the terrorist saboteurs. 

 

love the graffitti "Hello from Bakhmut"   nice way to troll Russia on their own media.

[Beleg85]

1 hour ago, DesertFox said:

MoD in Moscow. Big smoking party going on, or they elected a new Pope. Dunno...

It was enough to penetrate 8 kms inside Russia and they already fired up "1812 Protocol". Maybe now they will raze to the ground everything on 700 kms road to the capital and wait for winter. Usually worked.

[paxromana]

8 hours ago, Artkin said:

During the march East in 1941, the most time consuming part of railway construction was switches and bridges. Moving or fixing rails was the easy part.

Well, actually, it was building new watering and coaling stations between the existing ones (Russian Broad Guage Locos carried more water and coal than German Standard Guage ones, so their water/coaling stops were roughly twice as far apart as what the German Locos needed) plus building new maintenance facilities for the German locos ... again, Russian facilities were not 100% interoperable and were, again, roughly twice as far apart as was needed.

The Barbarossa plan was to capture as many Russian locomotives as possible ... but the General Staff miscalculated, German Landsers loved shooting them up and seeing the steam shoot out!

[The_Capt]

53 minutes ago, billbindc said:

I have to say...and this is coming from the center left...that a lot of the antifa folks in DC were completely obnoxious. The BLM folks were what we would call around here 'good protesters'. They did their thing, acted coherently and didn't randomly attack whatever for the thrill of it...the burning of the lobby of the AFL-CIO being a particularly egregious example of the tendency to burn for the fun of it tendency of some of the Antifa folks. A lot of them looked like teenagers burning off covid isolation.

But...neither one had anything like the sheer nastiness of the radical right wingers. Patches like RWDS (that stands for "Right Wing Death Squad") and Confederate flags were routine and far more common than outright Nazi regalia. People telling my neighbors with a pride flag at their house that they "will come back for you later". Or the 100 or so Proud Boys that charged a police line my kid and I were behind because they were trying to get at BLM folks on the plaza on 16th Street behind us. Oh...and did I mention the guys with the long guns that got arrested at one of my places of business?

We got to see the monster with it's mask off...because they were sure that they were going to get a pardon sooner or later as they would tell DC MPD who had to deal with them...and I would strongly suggest you all take it seriously. Out of patriotism if nothing else. Nobody benefits more from it than Vladimir Putin.

So maybe a dumb question from an outsider but why not curb the powers of the presidency?   The US has a lot of checks and balances but maybe not enough.  I am sure there are a thousand reasons not to do this but seriously haven’t you guys had enough bad presidents to maybe rethink things a bit?

We have two types of pardons in Canada, one is done by the judicial system and the other is a royal pardon by the Governor General - normally ceremonial and rarely used.  The PM cannot pardon anyone - a pardon cannot be politicized.  The PM also has a lot less executive power - we do not have the executive order system in this country.  We have an Order in Council but it is also done be a committee and technically has to go past the GG.  In short there are political systems where one person can only do so much damage.

The ability of one administration to effectively hijack the democratic system is just a disaster waiting to happen.  It would be hilarious except for the whole “empire we all bet on” part.

[billbindc]

25 minutes ago, Kinophile said:

Literally how Hitler was able to bend the political process. If you know you'll get a pardon/won't be prosecuted then you'll do anything, which the Big Man can then use.

The trick is between thinking you'll get a pardon and actually having the guy in power follow through. Hitler did, and institutionalized that immunity. Other, more modern people didn't have the attention span to actually do the long-term, detailed  work for that kind of system-wide effect and so US democracy skirted the abyss,  instead of plunging in. 

Despite the worries about Azov et al,  fascism is a long way off in Ukraine. The Army seems to tolerate the Azov movement but is very firmly in control and, from what I can see,  knows exactly where to draw the line. Still,  it's never a good look to have soldiers supporting fascist tropes. I can see Blinken pushing for further marginalization and reduction of military units with fascist symbology. Not good optics in Congress... 

It absolutely bent the process in DC. The DC MPD leadership and rank and file knew that Trump as President has the power to take over the department any time he liked. That would have been catastrophic as he could have simply ordered them to not enforce the law against his political fellow travelers. Their response was to go easier on violent right wing protesters and come down harder on those on the left to forestall a worse outcome. It was obvious in how enforcement was carried out and drove the events that led to the clearing of Lafayette Park. 

It was an ugly choice but it bore out. Had the President been in charge of DC MPD on 1/6 they never would have been ordered in and Congress would have been over run. But in the meantime, BLM and Antifa were being kettled while Proud Boys were taunting police, starting fights on our streets and getting let go. And btw, it turns out that the head of the DC MPD intelligence wing was suborned by the Proud Boys and was indicted for it last week. 

[billbindc]

28 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

So maybe a dumb question from an outsider but why not curb the powers of the presidency?   The US has a lot of checks and balances but maybe not enough.  I am sure there are a thousand reasons not to do this but seriously haven’t you guys had enough bad presidents to maybe rethink things a bit?

We have two types of pardons in Canada, one is done by the judicial system and the other is a royal pardon by the Governor General - normally ceremonial and rarely used.  The PM cannot pardon anyone - a pardon cannot be politicized.  The PM also has a lot less executive power - we do not have the executive order system in this country.  We have an Order in Council but it is also done be a committee and technically has to go past the GG.  In short there are political systems where one person can only do so much damage.

The ability of one administration to effectively hijack the democratic system is just a disaster waiting to happen.  It would be hilarious except for the whole “empire we all bet on” part.

You would essentially need a reversal of the norms, laws and Supreme Court decisions from 1940 to 2020 to fix that and a bunch of structural changes in how politics works. Make no mistake...Congress is by much the more powerful branch but individual members don't want to be on the hook for difficult decisions. So, neither does the institution and decisions are handed over to the White  House. 

Edited to add: the pardon power is a central constitutional provision given to the Presidency. It is a plenary power that would require a constitutional amendment to change.

Edited May 25, 2023 by billbindc