How Hot is Ukraine Gonna Get?

[JonS]

13 minutes ago, Doc844 said:

Not being safe in your garden, office, home and there's no real defence against it that I can see.

Yeah there is: herd safety.

If you live in Butt****, Idaho, popn. 182, then put down your AR15. The ragheads^ aren't coming for you.

Even if you live right in the middle of New Jersey ... so do about 10,000,000 other people. You're fine.

^ although these days it's far more likely to be a right wing looney who's been watching too much Fox and other Russian propaganda.

Edited April 3, 2023 by JonS

[Cpl Steiner]

37 minutes ago, JonS said:

Lol.

 

Lol.

 

Edit: also, "Cpl Steiner"? Lol.

This must be the "rational discussion" Steve was referring to.

[Doc844]

Im tired (night shift) but did you just call me a right wing looney????

 

[Holien]

1 hour ago, JonS said:

so far nada

It will happen.

I am watching a TV series on BBC about key military tech advances and yesterday detailed the advent of handguns and the use in political assassination. 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b087xksp

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_assassinations_by_firearm

 

Quote

1536

Robert Pakington, Member of Parliament

Believed by some to be the first political assassination ever to be performed with a firearm.

Drones will be used, just humans being humans.

My Bet it will be in 2023 and then we will end up with a Wiki page like the one above....

 

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2023 by Holien
To Add more detail from my PC

[Holien]

6 hours ago, dan/california said:

Russians have detained someone

Never waste an opportunity to solve a crime and dispose of someone you want in jail.

[niall78]

1 hour ago, Cpl Steiner said:

Wow, just read this. As a Brit who voted for Brexit, I think maybe Steve should stick to military matters as this is pretty insulting and frankly bat **** crazy. My reason for voting Brexit, for the record, is that I believe in democracy and the EU is profoundly undemocratic. We got rid of a king in the 1600s because he was overruling our parliament. The EU over the passed decades has imposed thousands of laws on the UK we had to accept by treaty obligation. It was always about democracy and sovereignty for me and many others, not stupidity, irrationality, or Russian manipulation.

All far right taking points amplified by Putin's social media hit squad in the UK.

 

Funny how they went after the most easily swayed in the population with their propaganda so the rest of the country couldn't see the crazy stuff they were posting and react to it.

 

Anyway you are out of the "anti-democratic" EU and straight into the anti-democratic pacific partnership. You didn't even get a vote on that.

[Cpl Steiner]

5 minutes ago, niall78 said:

All far right taking points amplified by Putin's social media hit squad in the UK.

I doubt a 60+ resident of a Northeast coastal town whose economy was devastated by EU fishing quotas cares a damn what Putin thinks, if they even use social media. The idea that Russia caused Brexit is pretty ridiculous.

[Holien]

57 minutes ago, Cpl Steiner said:

This must be the "rational discussion" Steve was referring to.

Hmmmm

You do see what you have done don't you?

Which BTW was what JonS was succintly commenting on...

1 hour ago, Cpl Steiner said:

I think maybe Steve should stick to military matters as this is pretty insulting and frankly bat **** crazy.

My reason for voting Brexit, for the record, is that I believe in democracy and the EU is profoundly undemocratic.

We got rid of a king in the 1600s because he was overruling our parliament.

The EU over the passed decades has imposed thousands of laws on the UK we had to accept by treaty obligation.

It was always about democracy and sovereignty for me and many others, not stupidity, irrationality, or Russian manipulation.

Steve made no mention of stupidity, irrationality and was making a general point that Russia has spent a lot of money on influencing that result, of course who it affected is unknown...

16 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

Emotionally driven, hostile to rationale discussion,

As for your personal choice that is yours to make....

Anyway enough of this and it was meant to try and understand the Russian population and why they support the War on Ukraine...

Edited April 3, 2023 by Holien
Edited to change Getting to Influence as better description....

[Letter from Prague]

1 hour ago, Bufo said:

Ah, yes. One of the main points of Orban (PM of Hungary) that is in the tv, radio channels every day and posters across the country, is that they have to stop the tyrannical Brussel (the EU) because they attack Hungary. Huxit soon.

Man, I hope so.

[niall78]

46 minutes ago, Cpl Steiner said:

I doubt a 60+ resident of a Northeast coastal town whose economy was devastated by EU fishing quotas cares a damn what Putin thinks, if they even use social media. The idea that Russia caused Brexit is pretty ridiculous.

UK fishing fleet sold its quotas to EU fleets over a twenty year period - it wasn't taken from them. It made a small percentage of them rich while hobbling the industry.

 

Better to blame the 'bad' EU though. Like most Putin talking points it takes two minutes of research to disprove.

[Butschi]

4 hours ago, Cpl Steiner said:

The EU over the passed decades has imposed thousands of laws on the UK we had to accept by treaty obligation.

Um, maybe try to actually read how making laws in the EU works? While I'm certain some people in Brussels would not be entirely against having the power to impose something on members that's not how it works. Each and every member has veto powers. So if, e.g. fishing quota were reduced, your government agreed to it. Probably in exchange for a better deal in some other regard. And the UK did have a much better deal than many others. But that's the usual strategy of populist politicians: The good things were all their doing, the compromises they themselves agreed to was evil EU.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Butschi

[Tenses]

45 minutes ago, Butschi said:

Um, maybe try to actually read how making laws in the EU works? While I'm certain some people in Brussels would not be entirely against having the power to impose something on members that's not how it works. Each and every member has veto powers. So if, e.g. fishing quota were reduced, your government agreed to it. Probably in exchange for a better deal in some other regard. And the UK did have a much better deal then many others. But that's the usual strategy of populist politicians: The good things were all their doing, the compromises they themselves agreed to was evil EU.

This. This is how Poland and Hungary goverments are selling bull**** to the less informed part of society. Evil EU is a reason for expensive energy from coal due to CO2 allowances. The same allowances goverment sells and can use this money as they wish, for example investing in decarbonizing industry. But this would be such a waste, wouldn't it?

 

Honestly, after more than 2000 years and hundreds of smaller and larger wars, I think we are really at the point, where doing things together is an option. Wasting it would be the most shameful thing in European history. As everything, EU has major flaws but none of them justify throwing it into the ditch instead of fixing it.

[chuckdyke]

Absolute power always corrupts. 

[Billy Ringo]

Would it be possible to limit the name calling, "rural dimwits" "right wing looney's" and focus on the war in Ukraine? 

Thank you.

[Cpl Steiner]

As usual the anti-Brexit crowd are unable to debate without slinging insults. Brexiteers were stupid, or old, or manipulated, or didn't know what they were voting for and should be asked to vote again once they clever people have explained it to them. This is not debate so I'm off.

[chuckdyke]

I can remember when it was just the BENELUX where did they go wrong?

[chuckdyke]

3 hours ago, Doc844 said:

Im tired (night shift) but did you just call me a right wing looney????

 

  

[Butschi]

2 hours ago, Cpl Steiner said:

The idea that Russia caused Brexit is pretty ridiculous.

Here we agree. I think Putin's ability to somehow manipulate people is totally exaggerated. It's one thing to ampflify opinions and emotions that were there already (i.e. mobilize people with at least an affinity in that direction). That he can or could do. And some certainly just fell for disinformation. But - as far as I can tell from the outside - the idea to leave EU was popular way before Putin got involved.

[TheVulture]

23 minutes ago, Butschi said:

Here we agree. I think Putin's ability to somehow manipulate people is totally exaggerated. It's one thing to ampflify opinions and emotions that were there already (i.e. mobilize people with at least an affinity in that direction). That he can or could do. And some certainly just fell for disinformation. But - as far as I can tell from the outside - the idea to leave EU was popular way before Putin got involved.

This I can definitely agree with. Just because Russian troll farms try and push certain talking points, or try to stir up and magnify disagreements in general, it doesn't automatically follow that they are creating problems that didn't exist before. Or even that they have much effect at all.

Britain joining the EU created (economic) winners and losers, and leaving the EU also creates winners and losers. Telling people who are genuinely better of personally for leaving the EU that they only think that because they've been fooled by Russian trolls is...odd. And for some people, the sovereignty issue *is* important and would still be a decisive factor even if they thought the country as a whole would be worse off. There have always been people who thought that, before the UK joined the EU, the whole time we were in, and during Brexit.

I don't agree with them in the slightest: I'm very pro UK being in the EU, and don't give a fig about nationalism and sovereignty vs the EU. But I can accept that others genuinely have different opinions for valid reasons that I just don't happen to share.

To dismiss the whole of Brexit as a result of Russian interference is to ignore that Britain really is very divided in attitudes to Europe and the EU in particular.

 

[kevinkin]

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11929855/Extremely-high-number-Russian-troop-deaths-Ukraine-war-linked-alcohol-abuse-MoD-says.html

In a stupor, let's hope they start attacking to the east. There are not enough jail cells in the world to incarcerate these baboons. 

[Butschi]

24 minutes ago, TheVulture said:

I don't agree with them in the slightest: I'm very pro UK being in the EU, and don't give a fig about nationalism and sovereignty vs the EU. But I can accept that others genuinely have different opinions for valid reasons that I just don't happen to share.

Well said. Though personally I blame it on the Brexiteers that now no more Geeta's Premium Chilli Pickle is available in the EU. Shame on you!

*Cough* Um... back on topic, I guess.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Butschi

[niall78]

24 minutes ago, TheVulture said:

This I can definitely agree with. Just because Russian troll farms try and push certain talking points, or try to stir up and magnify disagreements in general, it doesn't automatically follow that they are creating problems that didn't exist before. Or even that they have much effect at all.

Britain joining the EU created (economic) winners and losers, and leaving the EU also creates winners and losers. Telling people who are genuinely better of personally for leaving the EU that they only think that because they've been fooled by Russian trolls is...odd. And for some people, the sovereignty issue *is* important and would still be a decisive factor even if they thought the country as a whole would be worse off. There have always been people who thought that, before the UK joined the EU, the whole time we were in, and during Brexit.

I don't agree with them in the slightest: I'm very pro UK being in the EU, and don't give a fig about nationalism and sovereignty vs the EU. But I can accept that others genuinely have different opinions for valid reasons that I just don't happen to share.

To dismiss the whole of Brexit as a result of Russian interference is to ignore that Britain really is very divided in attitudes to Europe and the EU in particular.

 

The EU didn't even figure in polls in the UK about things bothering the public. Came in after the top ten concerns in the years before the Brexit vote.

Once the troll farms went to work that changed dramatically. This worked by specifically targeting lower education voters and voters that leaned towards conspiracy theories. With the results seen.

The UK's own reports showed there was no loss of sovereignty in the EU - it was all just bullsh1t.

You get the same "loss" of sovereignty joining any international organisation - the UN, NATO, etc.

 

 

 

[Yet]

16 hours ago, Kinophile said:

Yup, but comparison to Russian losses its an excellent trade,  if we think without emotion. 

 its ok in war to lose 1€ if it  costs the opponent 30€. 

so if the goal is 'population drainage' it is excellent.

however, soldiers are also mainly assets on the Battlefield. so what are these soldiers worth? i wouldnt like to spend 1€ if the enemy spends 30 Zimbabwean dollars. 

as long as we dont know what its worth, and what changes the war; we dont know what the ratio really means.

 

[dan/california]

Ukrainians are literally fighting and dying for the privilege of EU membership. It seems like a pretty strong endorsement of the idea to me.

I have posted this before but it merits rewatching 

 

[Ts4EVER]

The EU does not benefit all of the local elites, which is why they worked towards Brexit in GB. Moving money streams and power back from the EU elites to some of the local ones. For the people on the ground it probably won't be any radical improvement, they are just getting exploited in slightly different ways by slightly different people.

Edited April 3, 2023 by Ts4EVER