It is way, way too easy to snipe M113A2 gunners

[Artkin]

This was from a soviet RPG team, which means it was an ak-74 without a scope that killed my gunner in one shot. This was at 215m. I think we all know just how vulnerable gunners are. They should be abstracted some sort of protection since they are able to duck when getting fired at.

 

https://vimeo.com/664496510

[Artkin]

These videos are insanely huge, 1.7Gb for 20 seconds so I can't upload a second. But it just happened again. 400m third shot from an ak-74 rifleman who was just firing at something else literally 5 seconds before. The Soviets are all regular veterancy. They are way, way, way too good. This is kind of ridiculous and absolutely should be adjusted.

Turn :

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/odqcp2cbbru450d/AAC7fkTc4Mo85n1f-QwHSaIOa?dl=0

 

Edited January 11, 2022 by Artkin

[The_Capt]

So 215m is well within effective range of the AK-74, 415m may be pushing it.  As to “ducking”, Hollywood has done realism no favours, I can’t see the first video but those bullets are travelling faster than sound so you are dead at the “crack” and not the “thump”.  One can only duck if they miss the first burst and the brain can recognize what is going on, more veteran crews will react faster while green troops will literally stand there wondering what is making all the holes.

 

[Artkin]

Well sure, but 215m for a one shot precision kill on a target the size of a helmet (Which had just come to a stop from either a fast or sprint order) seems pretty absurd. 

The 400m shot took 3 rounds which was far too good still, but after a few rounds the crew should either duck or be given some kind of bonus. If someones vehicle was taking fire they would certainly hide behind the gun shield better if not drop down entirely. 

I have to recheck the veterancy but I dont remember putting any green m113s in that scenario. 

You cant see that video? It's ridiculous

[MikeyD]

We've got four WWII titles and I've lost count how many modules, all highlighting the issue of exposed half track gunners and unbuttoned tank commanders within rifle range of the enemy. If the enemy can shoot you they're going to try to shoot you. I've seen M113 gunners button back up on receiving incoming fire plenty of times. Just because the odds of getting hit are low doesn't mean the first bullet won't hit your man. After all, that was the rifleman's intent in firing at you.

One thing that affects ducking down is morale. With high morale like fanatic your pixeltruppen will choose to die on his feet rather than be suppressed, probably not the behavior you intended. Highly trained like elite tend to be task-oriented. If you give him an order to area fire he's going to area fire come hell or high water.

Edited January 11, 2022 by MikeyD

[Artkin]

I see gunners die way too often in the M113A2. I didn't say the M113A1 because it's just like a ww2 halftrack - nothing at all to hide behind. If you watch the video I posted it shows the insane shots AI make from time to time. And then the turn I submitted was the minute after

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Artkin said:

Well sure, but 215m for a one shot precision kill on a target the size of a helmet (Which had just come to a stop from either a fast or sprint order) seems pretty absurd. 

How many shooters were engaging? We only notice the hits but not the misses. Coming to a stop whilst not being situation aware. (LDZ and ODZ) is dangerous for your APC. 

[Artkin]

OK for some reason I'm the only person that can watch that video. Why would Vimeo even take my upload if that was the case??
Right, well the savegame emphasizes my point. I don't think I have a save for that original trickshot.

Somehow fraps turned a 14 second clip into 1.4gb. What terrible software we have to use in todays world. Consider it forever uninstalled.

Here is the video reuploaded to my DB instead:

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/x9nague0gwrdx0v/Cm Cold War 2022-01-10 18-39-15-20.mkv?dl=0

Edited January 11, 2022 by Artkin

[chuckdyke]

I watched it and heard only a 'Bang'. (2 APC's approaching and a Blue Scout is also in the location. I have Elite Sniper miss a 500 mtr shot. I recall a regular British rifleman hitting a CO of a Tiger tank under similar circumstances. 

Edited January 11, 2022 by chuckdyke

[DMS]

The main problem shooting with open sights is to see the target. Large APC with head above, with sky at background is the best target.

[domfluff]

Firstly: unbuttoning at 200m is far too close. You're never going to live long in that situation, and you shouldn't be unbuttoning within small arms range, unless you have complete control over the firefight or you are desperate, and are willing to take the loss.

However, this is also a perennial CM problem.

From a lot of experimentation, it looks as though an exposed gunner or tank commander is significantly more likely to be hit than a single chap in the open. It appears as though a squad firing at a single spotted target has it's shots spread over a much wider area than shots targeted at vehicle crew. It appears as given shot is deviating by the same percentage amount, but from a much smaller area, resulting in a much tighter cone of incoming fire.

I wouldn't be surprised if a tank commander/MG gunner was actually exactly eight times as likely to get hit - if the TC is being hit from the 1m x 1m subsection, rather than the 8m x 8m action square, but the precise values are speculation here.

Still, I think there is clearly an issue, and has been since forever. This can often be confused by this kind of anecdote, because in the broadest sense it's "working as designed" - unbuttoning *should* be a significant risk, and especially if you unbutton within small arms range then you should and are risking your gunner. I do think this behaviour needs to be tweaked.

 

[The_Capt]

Ya so I can see the reason for the question and the short answer is, well "yes, you can pick off a helmet sticking above a cupola shield at short-to-medium range.  As has been noted the old human skull is silhouetted nicely and is a curved structure on top of a bunch of straight lines (idea there to re-design the crew helmet).  Hitting a 1 foot target at 200m with a modern assault rifle is not sniper work, 400m is approaching just bad luck (unless a test is showing that it is happening all the time) but is not crazy.  Couple things to note:  

- Pixel crew commanders do not behave as per RL.  We had a pretty decent method of just sticking the head over the lip and moving around in dips and peeks, or using the gap above the MG.  One did not ride into a fire fight with one head held high and rigid, so that is an abstraction.  Unlike dismounted infantry, I am pretty sure the game treats the crew like static targets once the vehicle stops moving.

- You can't hear sweet FA in a running M113 with that helmet on.  You have radio ear pieces built into that thing, which is always chattering especially in a fire fight.  Sure there is a little toggle to allow you to hear outside sounds but then you can't hear the damn radio as well.  So getting shot at is less a dramatic experience as one might believe.  More often than not the first indication is someone on the radio saying "hey you are being shot at" because they can see the fire or tracers.

So if anything were to be tweaked it is likely to add movement to the crew commanders head, even a few inches of movement would reduce likelihood of getting hit.  But until that gets modeled, well unbutton with care. 

[BeondTheGrave]

*Laughs in BTR-60*

[Redwolf]

12 hours ago, MikeyD said:

We've got four WWII titles and I've lost count how many modules, all highlighting the issue of exposed half track gunners and unbuttoned tank commanders within rifle range of the enemy.

Well, yes, but the point here is that SdKfZ 251/1 and M113 gunners have shields - but seem to die as easily as tank commanders who do not.

[akd]

The general problem with shooting at exposed crew is that spotting vehicle = spotting crew.  Vehicles are generally easy for infantry to spot, and if the state of the vehicle is unbuttoned, then the instant the vehicle is spotted, every capable weapon will target the exposed crew.  Beyond that, there is no ability for crew to take temporary cover the way infantry similarly exposed behind a low wall can.  They are either unbuttoned or buttoned (and for the AI player the latter is permanent), so buttoning at even a hint of possible small arms fire in the area would likely excessively reduce AI situational awareness.

Edited January 11, 2022 by akd

[domfluff]

The gun shields do help if you use them correctly, but the main issue is that the accuracy has been shown to increase dramatically when targeting gunners/tank commanders.

This has all been tested, logged, etc. The data is all there. Shots versus tank commanders are more accurate than against a single individual in the open - the cone of fire is significantly tighter.

[Grey_Fox]

Just now, akd said:

The general problem with shooting at exposed crew is that spotting vehicle = spotting crew.  Vehicles are generally easy for infantry to spot, and if the state of the vehicle is unbuttoned, then the instant the vehicle is spotted, every capable weapon will aim at target the exposed crew.  Beyond that, there is not ability for crew to take temporary cover the way infantry similarly exposed behind a low wall can.  They are either unbuttoned or buttoned (and for the AI player the latter is permanent), so buttoning at even a hint of possible small arms fire in the area would likely excessively reduce AI situational awareness.

This isn't so much about crews not buttoning up, it's about tests indicating that pixeltruppen are far more accurate when shooting at unbuttoned crewmembers,

[akd]

Just now, Grey_Fox said:

This isn't so much about crews not buttoning up, it's about tests indicating that pixeltruppen are far more accurate when shooting at unbuttoned crewmembers,

There’s not really a direct way to compare.

[Pelican Pal]

Yea, there is some sort of modeling issue with vehicle crew. I suspect its a combination both of what @domfluff mentioned, and a lack of cover saves.

Troops on terrain get a cover save based on the terrain they are in. Representing micro-terrain, soldiers making themselves smaller targets than the animation system can do, etc... Anyone poking their head out of a vehicle does not seem to gain the benefit of these cover saves so any hit is going to be more lethal, unless they have an armor save. Its reasonable to argue that vehicle crew should receive some cover save to represent them placing themselves in less exposed positions (and acting more dynamically) than the animation system allows them to.


 

[Grey_Fox]

4 minutes ago, akd said:

There’s not really a direct way to compare.

I think there is. You put a single trooper in the open, and see how long it takes a squad to kill them from a given range.

It may not be a perfect test, but it is indicative of the underlying problem, especially when you consider that 1 man in the open is roughly twice as big as a head and torso showing over a vehicle hatch, especially if there is a turret shield involved.

Edited January 11, 2022 by Grey_Fox

[domfluff]

So there have been tests. The first clue was some forum posts from here years ago that showed SMG tracers firing at the unbuttoned tank commander, or at the vehicle. The vehicle had tracer fire going all over the action spot, and the unbuttoned one had a focused, tight cone going straight for the TC. The same weapon firing at the same range, but suddenly much more accurate?

The main methodology to generate the data was to set up firing ranges with unbuttoned tcs/halftracks and individual HQ soldiers, at the same distance and on sand. I don't have the test results to hand (can dig this up), but it showed a marked increase of accuracy towards the commanders, over the soldiers on foot. Same weapon, same distance, statistically significantly more accurate fire.

[Artkin]

Yeah so as @domfluff said, the accuracy vs (specifically) unbuttoned m113a2 and m60 crew unbuttoned seems way too good. If they were shooting at an infantryman walking through the field the accuracy would be way less. I'm sure we have all experienced this behavior with our halftracks as @Redwolf brought up. I understand the feature of ducking does not exist in CM but I was alluding to what @Pelican Pal was saying, a slight bonus to gun shield crews in the same way infantry recieve bonuses on specific tiles (If even possible). 

I knew they had headphones but I didnt think the sound of the engine would prevent them from hearing bullet impacts on the hull of a vehicle. I could see it from near misses though. The crew should be honed into the sound of their own engine by the time they hit the battlefield. When youre used to using something everyday you are able to tell when the slightest thing is off about it. Your ears are certainly able to. In the save file my m113 took 2 hull shots and then the third killed the gunner. In my opinion that should have been a 50/50 chance for them to button up. I'm sure we have all seen more than 3 shots before crews decide to button up though. Especially in the ww2 titles. 

In the ww2 titles this problem is prevalent, though understandably the gun shields they used were more primative. The gun shield on the SdKfZ 251/17 is excellent however and you cant engage the gunner much at all. This is very similar to the m113A2 though the German gunner is much lower in the turret (And is actually eating the gun.. bug!). 

As @Grey_Fox said, the exposed target is much larger for an infantryman. Its 2-3x larger even when prone and facing you. 

 

[Artkin]

In my case both times it was a single shooter who engaged and killed my gunners between 2-400m and 1-3 shots. 

[The_Capt]

20 minutes ago, Artkin said:

I knew they had headphones but I didnt think the sound of the engine would prevent them from hearing bullet impacts on the hull of a vehicle. I could see it from near misses though. The crew should be honed into the sound of their own engine by the time they hit the battlefield. When youre used to using something everyday you are able to tell when the slightest thing is off about it.

I was not speaking in abstract, but from personal experience.  Same goes for helicopters.

 

[Artkin]

7 minutes ago, The_Capt said:

I was not speaking in abstract, but from personal experience.  Same goes for helicopters.

 

I didn't realize this, good to know though