CM: GWOT?

[puje]

If any future CM installment was to focus on the Global War On Terrorism, which features in gameplay, game mechanics, units, etc, do you think Battlefront should ad or change? 

As it is now, the games tend to be mainly focused on blitz warfare and set piece battles, which is quite a different setting. 

In short: CM:GWOT 2022. Make it happen people

[Bufo]

Hope not, patrolling and assaulting the house of a single gunman would be quite boring in CM terms.

 

Mission: have a Task Unit to search a building where they find some items of interest, then comes the EOD to render safe, then some exploitation team... Yeah, boring.

Edited October 30, 2021 by Bufo

[Codreanu]

I think we would need a whole new engine for that, MOUT is barely serviceable as it is and with a game like that which would mostly be in heavily urban environments it would just turn into a chore.

[MOS:96B2P]

1 hour ago, puje said:

If any future CM installment was to focus on the Global War On Terrorism, which features in gameplay, game mechanics, units, etc, do you think Battlefront should ad or change? 

In many ways CMSF2 comes close to this.  But many improvements could be made. 

Off the top of my head the ability to spot and disarm IEDs (or safely detonate them) would be useful. 

[puje]

1 hour ago, Bufo said:

Hope not, patrolling and assaulting the house of a single gunman would be quite boring in CM terms.

 

Mission: have a Task Unit to search a building where they find some items of interest, then comes the EOD to render safe, then some exploitation team... Yeah, boring.

Man that sounds like the best CM ever. 

[Warts 'n' all]

Just the thought of this down market garbage makes me wanna puje, I think I spelt that right.

[Bufo]

10 hours ago, puje said:

Man that sounds like the best CM ever. 

On a side note, I am nit sure if you are aware of how long all of that takes (in real life anyway).

[puje]

8 minutes ago, Bufo said:

On a side note, I am nit sure if you are aware of how long all of that takes (in real life anyway).

I'm an Iraq vet (2006) and I've participated in a number of night time arrest missions, so I'd say I have a general idea

[MOS:96B2P]

6 hours ago, puje said:

I'm an Iraq vet (2006) and I've participated in a number of night time arrest missions, so I'd say I have a general idea

+1.  Thank you for your service.  You could probably make some cool scenarios based on your first hand experiences. 

If your interested in asymmetrical warfare you might enjoy the CMBS scenario Tactical Operations Center (TOC).  The link to the topic thread is provided below.  

https://community.battlefront.com/topic/126574-new-scenario-tactical-operations-center/

Link to the location in the Scenario Depot.

https://www.thefewgoodmen.com/tsd3/cm-black-sea/cm-black-sea-add-ons/tactical-operations-center/

From the description:

The scenario also provides three types of intelligence to help guide the decision-making process. The three types of intelligence are Human Intelligence (HUMINT), Signals Intelligence (SIGINT) and Tactical Site Exploitation (TSE). HUMINT is collected from Separatist who defect under an amnesty program administered by the Ukrainian government. The HUMINT intelligence is in the name field of defectors and includes an intelligence code, grid coordinates and time. A quick glance at the intelligence code sheet (included in the briefing) allows the player to know what, where and when something will occur or where something is located. Some of this HUMINT is time sensitive. The TSE and SIGINT are provided by touch objective notifications at the top of the screen. This intelligence will be useful in bringing The Butcher of Belz (enemy commander) to justice and for disrupting Separatist operations. 

Forward Operating Base (FOB) Apache has a Helicopter Landing Zone (HLZ) where reinforcements will arrive, and other units will exit from. The FOB also has a mortar pit that will be resupplied with ammo both by air and by convoy if the roads and HLZ remain open. Another feature included in the scenario is the ability to destroy base camps thereby preventing the Separatists from receiving their scheduled reinforcements.

[Warts 'n' all]

I assume that the main job of an Iraq vet was to treat honey badgers shot by trigger happy USatians. 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On 10/30/2021 at 8:58 PM, MOS:96B2P said:

Off the top of my head the ability to spot and disarm IEDs (or safely detonate them) would be useful.

That & Breach Teams for the Uncons, to square things up a bit tactically.

PS - IMHO @puje's small unit infantry scenarios are some of the very best out there....The tension can be quite palpable, seriously nail-biting stuff! 

[domfluff]

On 10/30/2021 at 7:35 PM, puje said:

If any future CM installment was to focus on the Global War On Terrorism, which features in gameplay, game mechanics, units, etc, do you think Battlefront should ad or change? 

As it is now, the games tend to be mainly focused on blitz warfare and set piece battles, which is quite a different setting. 

As you in particular are extremely aware, you can approach this with CMSF.

I do think that the focus of CMSF is actually a little confused - clearly the setting references both wars with Iraq at times, and much of Task Force Thunder is a "blitz" style, "Road To Baghdad" sprint.

There are plenty of scenarios and content which are set post-occupation, but there are quite a few which are weird combinations of both - where the stated mission and forces are that of a coordinated NATO response to a state-level threat, but the objectives are more COIN oriented.

I do think the lack of any higher level campaign mechanics would be the largest limiting factor here - an insurgent force "losing" a battle, but getting some good propaganda footage might still work out to be a "win", and you might have a situation where both sides "win". That kind of nuance isn't really what CM is good at, fundamentally.

One idea I've been throwing around for a while is using a system like an Engel Matrix game to control that. Matrix games cope with that kind of fuzzy inputs and outcomes extremely well, and would be rules-light enough to not get in the way of the generated CM battles.

[puje]

On 10/31/2021 at 3:49 PM, MOS:96B2P said:

...  You could probably make some cool scenarios based on your first hand experiences...

Most of the stuff I have made has been vaguely inspired by my own experiences. More like "this is how COIN works", more than actual events. I was never in that much combat, so I've found it a bit difficult to really translate it to the CM game mechanics. Like Bufo mentions raiding a house, and realistically having to spend maybe 30-60 minutes searching it. That can't be simulated well in CM. It's either touch or occupy. And you can't specify you want MPs or a HUM INT unit to do the searching. Plus the city environments are generally a bit too sterile and boring looking. It would be dull to be static in one location for very long. It would take a total overhaul of the game, and though that will never happen (I may be wrong, but I think most CM players are panzer generals at heart), I can always dream. 

--

I'll make sure to check out the scenario some time. 

Edited November 1, 2021 by puje

[Sgt.Squarehead]

30 minutes ago, puje said:

I'll make sure to check out the scenario some time.

TOC's a hoot! 

Testing it was where I got my new signature! 

[The_Capt]

I am not sure it is GWOT specific but a CM:SOF might be along these lines.  But you would need a lot on the engine to make it work.  A lot of mechanics aren’t in the game right now that would support SOF actions, although one could do a solid AAA/SW run if you took the uncons and gave them embeds with air/arty support.  Lot of new kit and technology to model as well for DA missions but it would be interesting (e.g. insertion/extraction).  Not sure what the market would be for something so specific though..

 

[civdiv]

The CM engine cannot do SOF type GWOT missions. CM is designed to handle company and battalion level conventional combat, not what you appear to be asking for, which is really platoon and below level tactical combat. And the human cannot control the actions of the sub units to the degree required. And any SOF raid/strike takes days and weeks of planning, with lots of folks spending literally years worth of man hours to launch a team on a mission. While they result in tens of minutes of action packed excitement, it takes a lot of drudgery to get there.

As others have said, fighting a counter insurgency like Iraq and Afghanistan in this game engine sounds about as compelling as watching paint dry. Lots of static FOBs, endless boring patrols, and every once in a while you get shot at or your vehicle suddenly explodes. 

Edited November 26, 2021 by civdiv

[The_Capt]

1 hour ago, civdiv said:

The CM engine cannot do SOF type GWOT missions. CM is designed to handle company and battalion level conventional combat, not what you appear to be asking for, which is really platoon and below level tactical combat. And the human cannot control the actions of the sub units to the degree required. And any SOF raid/strike takes days and weeks of planning, with lots of folks spending literally years worth of man hours to launch a team on a mission. While they result in tens of minutes of action packed excitement, it takes a lot of drudgery to get there.

As others have said, fighting a counter insurgency like Iraq and Afghanistan in this game engine sounds about as compelling as watching paint dry. Lots of static FOBs, endless boring patrols, and every once in a while you get shot at or your vehicle suddenly explodes. 

Not entirely correct, CM could model it but we would have to rescope the size of squads and what a "platoon" means.  TacAI would need some serious upgrades as would spotting and urban combat etc, but modeling a SOTF linked and able to carry out Direct Actions is doable.  If you look as CMCW, Direction Found is basically in the ballpark.  We would have to build an entirely new support layer but the bones are already in the mix across the titles.  There would be a bill to model new tech and how its mechanics work but again not impossible.

The biggest weakness to the argument is not that it could not be done in CM, it is how do you make it anything not repetitious to the point of boredom?  How many HVT missions can you do before they all start to be the same?  You could do some SW type stuff with partner forces which might be interesting but in CM it would probably be not that different from what is already there.  They make good Hollywood scripts but as a wargame, not so sure.

[civdiv]

2 hours ago, The_Capt said:

Not entirely correct, CM could model it but we would have to rescope the size of squads and what a "platoon" means.  TacAI would need some serious upgrades as would spotting and urban combat etc, but modeling a SOTF linked and able to carry out Direct Actions is doable.  If you look as CMCW, Direction Found is basically in the ballpark.  We would have to build an entirely new support layer but the bones are already in the mix across the titles.  There would be a bill to model new tech and how its mechanics work but again not impossible.

The biggest weakness to the argument is not that it could not be done in CM, it is how do you make it anything not repetitious to the point of boredom?  How many HVT missions can you do before they all start to be the same?  You could do some SW type stuff with partner forces which might be interesting but in CM it would probably be not that different from what is already there.  They make good Hollywood scripts but as a wargame, not so sure.

Yes, BF COULD do it, but SHOULD they do it? No, in my opinion. The game engine doesn’t support it, and even with modifications, won’t do it well. Go get a game like Squad if you want that stuff. Yes, it’s a FPS, but that is the way something like this needs to be done.

[The_Capt]

33 minutes ago, civdiv said:

Yes, BF COULD do it, but SHOULD they do it? No, in my opinion. The game engine doesn’t support it, and even with modifications, won’t do it well. Go get a game like Squad if you want that stuff. Yes, it’s a FPS, but that is the way something like this needs to be done.

Meh, agree to disagree.  Maybe with CMx3.  The role of the GFC could be modeled very well in a tactical wargame like CM but your point is valid for the current engine.  It would be very nice for the player to be able to plan insertion/extraction and effectively manage a SOF campaign, manage resources and C4ISR, all the stuff that really matters.

[LongLeftFlank]

He said Captain / I said GWOT / He said Captain / I said GWOT you want....

(sorry, I'm joining the Lord Protector in the peanut gallery here, but I couldn't resist. Woot!)

 

[civdiv]

17 hours ago, The_Capt said:

Meh, agree to disagree.  Maybe with CMx3.  The role of the GFC could be modeled very well in a tactical wargame like CM but your point is valid for the current engine.  It would be very nice for the player to be able to plan insertion/extraction and effectively manage a SOF campaign, manage resources and C4ISR, all the stuff that really matters.

GFC? Ground Force Commander?

You would have to add tons of new mechanics to get even close. I assume there could be some work arounds and some stuff could be ‘fudged’ but it doesn’t sound very compelling. The assault force gets dropped off in the middle of the night and then walks six kilometers to the target. And then three fireteams enter a building and shoot people! Rinse, repeat.

 

And if you lose an assaulter it is a mission fail unless you killed/captured someone along the lines of Sauron.

Edited November 27, 2021 by civdiv

[The_Capt]

15 minutes ago, civdiv said:

The assault force gets dropped off in the middle of the night and then walks six kilometers to the target. And then three fireteams enter a building and shoot people! Rinse, repeat.

There is a risk of repetition for sure, kind of would only work in a campaign setting (introduce SSE and even cyber).  As to the DA, there is a bit more to it than that, particularly in a near-peer environment.  Which raises the point that a SOF module would work better in a conventional conflict setting against harder targets.  Would have to think about stealth and spotting/sound.  It could work if done right as a DLC, particularly if you escalate GWOT into strategic competition.  

Definitely would need new mechanics. But there are Special Recon and Special Recovery options on the table, ya it might make for an interesting set of small/tiny campaigns.
 

Edited November 27, 2021 by The_Capt

[ViperAssassin26]

I would day the use of JSOC. Proper room clearing mechanics. No just running into the building and hoping you spot the enemy first. I created a mod for Foregrips, but I would like to see them come with the game themselves. maybe being able to use a Blackhawk to bring in more troops. or maybe have it pop up to. drop off troops and then disappear again.