DAR - Snow For The Hungry AXIS PBEM

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

1 hour ago, MOS:96B2P said:

+1.  More interesting stuff. 

Do you have an SOP for when you dismount your halftracks?  Maybe so many meters away from the OPFOR or one terrain feature away etc.  

I'm often conflicted about if I should unbutton a WW2 tank (except in a tank on tank fight) since it may result in the loss of the TC and with him the binoculars.  I've come to a kind of compromise.  If possible I leave the HQ tanks buttoned and tanks I am using for area fire.  The others can be opened for targets of opportunity and the possibility of OPFOR tanks showing up.   

Good questions. I usually will dismount my SPWs in dead ground out of sight of the enemy and which terrain will depend on what they are doing, but in this scenario that type of terrain quite difficult to come by. I could have dismounted out of the max visibility but then they'd have farther to run. I am not receiving much if any fire on my foremost Hanomags so I brought them up quite far to save them running across the snow (slow and tiring, even on light snow) and then disembarked as it seemed pretty safe. Also I wanted to get them out in case whatever he has lurking back there got LOS and took out a vehicle filled with pixeltruppen! They are still well back from the tip of the spear as you can see from the screenshot.

I tend to typically treat SPWs as battle taxis and they can, when grouped together, put out quite a bit of supporting fire so I do use them more than I probably should as fire support. On a clear map with long LOS I probably wouldn't be so brave. I was tempted to charge them up to the objective and then disembark but the risk of losing that much firepower was too great for me so I chickened out.

As for tanks, I subscribe to the "weld the hatches open" theory and always have my TCs unbuttoned as it improves spotting immeasurably. I will only button them when they go into urban environments (in support of infantry) where they are more at risk, or when it makes sense like in this scenario where the SBF panzers were only buttoned because every time I unbuttoned them they'd take fire and button themselves up anyway. It was easier to leave them that way. Now the incoming fire has died down I've got them all up again.

MMM

Edited November 8, 2021 by Monty's Mighty Moustache

[jamxo]

5 hours ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

for tanks, I subscribe to the "weld the hatches open" theory and always have my TCs unbuttoned as it improves spotting immeasurably.

I’m always quite interested in this topic. I try to do the same but find in game my commanders get hit painfully often.

I’ve seen people mention that at the part of the engagement we join on the typical CM battlefield most commanders in real life would have buttoned up - any truth to that? And was there standard operation procedure which differed between the various nations in WW2? As far as I recall British tank commanders were encouraged to stay turned out as much as possible (and this led to lots of sniper casualties in Normandy) 

Back on topic excited for the next few turns. Your armour on the hill must be itching to load some AP rounds

[Erwin]

Over 300 meters to an enemy my SOP (usually) is to be unbuttoned.  Or, have the lead tank(s) buttoned with the overwatch tanks unbuttoned.  In closer range combat it's dangerous to be unbuttoned unless the enemy is mostly wiped out and one is simply mopping up a demoralized/suppressed enemy.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

13 hours ago, jamxo said:

I’m always quite interested in this topic. I try to do the same but find in game my commanders get hit painfully often.

I’ve seen people mention that at the part of the engagement we join on the typical CM battlefield most commanders in real life would have buttoned up - any truth to that? And was there standard operation procedure which differed between the various nations in WW2? As far as I recall British tank commanders were encouraged to stay turned out as much as possible (and this led to lots of sniper casualties in Normandy) 

Back on topic excited for the next few turns. Your armour on the hill must be itching to load some AP rounds

To be honest I don't really know what the doctrine was, I tend to do what makes the most sense to me and if tanks are not good at spotting then it makes sense to keep the TC unbuttoned as much as possible. When there's a danger they will get taken out (in close terrain for example) then I keep them down. I apply that to everything in the game, what would I do if it was me?

I've got one turn to write up so I'll try and get that done today but everyone in the house is full of cold and my youngest doesn't sleep well when he's ill so I've not had time to do much CM the last few days.

MMM

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

12 hours ago, Erwin said:

In closer range combat it's dangerous to be unbuttoned unless the enemy is mostly wiped out and one is simply mopping up a demoralized/suppressed enemy.

This is pretty much my thinking too.

MMM

[chuckdyke]

If I may butt in without publishing a spoiler. Have infantry close by with one AFV unbuttoned or let some scouts on the engine deck. Their intel will be passed on to the armored formation. 

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

2 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

If I may butt in without publishing a spoiler. Have infantry close by with one AFV unbuttoned or let some scouts on the engine deck. Their intel will be passed on to the armored formation. 

You are always welcome to comment spoiler-free

Good tips. I like the way infantry riding on the engine deck have access to the radio, very useful when playing as the Soviets.

MMM

[Erwin]

3 hours ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

I like the way infantry riding on the engine deck have access to the radio, very useful when playing as the Soviets.

That is a great game hint.  Thanks...

Normally, I avoid having inf on tanks unless it's purely for transport though relatively safe areas.  It's too easy to have them wiped out by a single enemy MG burst.  (And in CMBN we still cannot use tanks as transports.)

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

Illness hit hard over the last few days but everyone seems a bit better now. I have a few turns to write up (hopefully today) so plenty of updates coming your way!

MMM

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Hope you are feeling better fella. 

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

Apologies, I am recovered now but haven't had time to get written up. I'll try and get caught up in the next day or two.

MMM

[Erwin]

Glad you are feeling better MMM.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

The Sixty-First to Sixty-Fourth Minutes - KT4

Four minutes to cover here so I'm going to break the update up into two parts. First the action on the left.

Everyone has finished pulling back from the treeline and the SPWs on the left are keeping the suppressive fires up. I'll need to swap out the fire support soon as they are starting to run a bit low on ammo. 

The 251/17 spots the AT rifle team survivor off to the right and sends some cannon shells his way. They don't hit.

I'm a bit worried about the area off to the right. It IS possible for him to cross some streams or drive through trees to get nasty weapons onto the left flank of my SBF force that is attacking the objective or into the right flank of the force I have on the left, highlighted in the image below.

To that end I've loaded up the Zugführer Trupp and 1 Gruppe (down to 2 men) into the 251/17 and they are going to swing round to the right into the highlighted area and mop up the AT rifle team. Operation Russenjagd! They can also serve as an early warning trigger should my oppo decide to try and sneak up on my forces.

As they wheel around the corner they get a spot on yet another AT rifle team watching everything I'm up to.

I dismount the troops and attack with cannon and small arms fire.

The 251/17 takes out the rifleman in the AT rifle team.

The other rifleman that we've known was there all along decides to try and run away but he's gunned down by the HQ Trupp.

The AT rifleman makes a run for it. He's still in range at the end of the turns and the 251/17 is chasing him all the way with fire.

Nothing further happens on this flank. One of the sound contacts in the trees brightens but I don't know yet if that's because someone's moving in there or it's an old contact.

MMM

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

The Sixty-First to Sixty-Fourth Minutes - Objective ROT

First a bit of admin, I have numbered the buildings in each sector to make things easier to follow. I'll refer to these from now on e.g. building A3.

A reminder of the dispositions at the end of the last turn:

Our fire seems to be starting to cause casualties on the buildings facing the SBF force. Here a soldier is taken out in building C1.

I noticed this these turns too. This is the location where the AT rifle team was spotted at the start of the attack on the objective and were seen running away under the weight of incoming fire. The contact icon disappeared so I assumed they were out of view but there are two bodies in the trees and one of them appears to have an AT rifle, so I'll assume they have been destroyed. Unless it's another AT rifle team, which is not outside the realm of possibility.

I also assumed that both the ATG teams were destroyed on the western edge of the objective, but I get a tentative contact in building B1 for an ATG team, so perhaps there were survivors and they made it back to cover once they'd regained their wits.

In building B3 I spot an infantry squad/team alongside the HQ unit I already knew was in there. This could be the other squad from the platoon as there is another in B2.

I'm still taking small arms fire from sector B. It's starting to have an effect (not on the panzers though).

We lose men in both the assault element and the SBF force to fire from sector B, I am not able to get effective fire onto those buildings because of the reverse slope so I need to do something about it.

I'm moving the HQ Trupp over to the buildings to provide some extra eyes on the back of the objective and see if we can get a spot on the armour that he has back there.

Meanwhile the Tiger arrives on station. To deal with sector B I'm going to advance 1 Zug supported by the Tiger and SPWs around to the right and attack sector B from an angle that will give him no keyhole shots from the other end of the objective. The main aim of this move is to get suppressing fire on sector B so 2 Zug can continue it's advance toward sector A.

As the Tiger is moving forward it fires and the shell falls well short, it takes out a man in 3 Gruppe/2 Zug. I could see no incoming fire that hit this team so it must've been the shell impact.

As 1 Zug advance they get fired upon by an ATG contact in E2. This must be the remainder of one of the other guns that were knocked out on the reverse slope.

A 251/17 gets the spot and sends some shells his way. One man at least gets taken out.

With fire superiority established 3 Gruppe and 1 Gruppe from 2 Zug advance towards sector A unmolested.

SBF dispositions at turn's end.

Assault element dispositions at turn's end.

An updated overview of the objective.

SITMAP

Operation Russenjagd continues on the left, they'll try and finish off that AT team and then advance along the open ground to see what else they can find. I'm going to reposition the StuG too as it's currently a bit far behind the rest of the Zug and won't be able to provide much support from where it is.

At the objective 2 Zug almost have a foothold and I'll advance 1 Zug slowly, keeping up the fire at all times, to an angle where they can fire on B3 too. His armour has not moved, or at least I haven't heard it move, for some time. I wonder if he's waiting for an opportune time, not sure what that would be. I do only have the one Tiger with 1 Kompanie so should he bum-rush it around the back of the objective with a few tanks then it might not last long. I need to get the infantry well ahead of the Tiger so they can employ their panzerfausts should such a thing occur.

MMM

[Erwin]

Still fascinating MMM.  Glad you are feeling better!

I note that friendly fire seems too deadly in CM.  In most games I have played it seems like an explosion from a tank gun shell that strikes 50-100 meters from a unit can cause one or more friendly casualties.  One especially notices this when assaulting towns when supported by tanks.

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

32 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Still fascinating MMM.  Glad you are feeling better!

I note that friendly fire seems too deadly in CM.  In most games I have played it seems like an explosion from a tank gun shell that strikes 50-100 meters from a unit can cause one or more friendly casualties.  One especially notices this when assaulting towns when supported by tanks.

Thanks, much better now. I'm a couple of turns ahead of this and things are getting very interesting, I'll try and get them written up in the next couple of days.

I was convinced it must have been enemy fire that took him out but I watched it over and over again without finding a shooter and he went down as soon as the shell hit so I concluded that it must've been friendly fire. It is an 88mm shell to be fair so it's not that surprising, strange that it was just that one guy. He was killed outright too, not just wounded.

MMM

[Erwin]

The other item that "Snow for the Hungry" demonstrates is a WW2 tank's almost telepathic spotting ability re inf. 

This scenario takes place in a blizzard with snow and poor LOS.  But, (in my vs AI game) I have seen a buttoned-up T-34 spot a one man sniper team over 120 meters to its front and a two man scout team 100 meters to its flank moving SLOW and kill them both in a turn.  Maybe with modern thermal imaging, but not in WW2.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Do you know for sure that the T-34 didn't have 'little friends' helping with the spotting?

[chuckdyke]

7 minutes ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Do you know for sure that the T-34 didn't have 'little friends' helping with the spotting?

I found a two men scout team on an engine deck can go unnoticed for a long time. 

[Erwin]

8 minutes ago, chuckdyke said:

I found a two men scout team on an engine deck can go unnoticed for a long time. 

No other enemy inf spotted and German tanks and loaded HT's are driving down the same road (transferring from the captured town) to the left flank assault.  (I am not trying for any attack along the right flank woods.)

It's quite common to see a tank that has been "smoked" or is in poor vis conditions have a unrealistic ability to spot inf sneaking up on it from any direction.  This leads to the tactic or running towards the tank and hoping to get lucky inside the AI's 7 second decision loop.

 

Edited November 18, 2021 by Erwin

[chuckdyke]

1 hour ago, Erwin said:

No other enemy inf spotted

Doesn't mean it is not there. Uncanny spotting is a giveaway. My JS2's always depend on nearby scouts. 

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

The Sixty-Fifth Minute

KT4

Operation Russenjagd continues. The 251/17 takes out the AT rifleman who ran away. The infantry will advance next turn to try and get eyes past the trees and see if he has anything nasty lurking.

On the left I have stopped firing for this turn to see what shakes out and am getting 3 Gruppe onboard their SPW when I spot infantry advancing through the trees again. I'm not sure if this is a new squad or one of the ones that ran away before, I'll assume the latter for now until I can get more information.

There's definitely someone with a DP still alive in there as they start taking shots at my 251/3.

And they connect. That's one man (out of 5) down from 2 Gruppe.

I forgot to move the StuG over to where the SPWs are last turn so I'll be bringing it round next turn to put some MG fire on the trees as it has plenty of ammo and the SPWs are starting to run a bit low.

Objective ROT

A reminder of the numbering and the previous dispositions:

The push continues, I'm bringing 4 Zug (Weapons) up a bit to provide overwatch.

A man from 2 Gruppe/1 Zug is taken out by fire from E2.

We soon get the spot, it's a HQ team. That's an ATG team, a MG team and a HQ team that we've spotted in this building thus far.

Unlucky for them the Tiger has spotted them too and they eat some 88mm fragments, he takes at least one casualty.

2 Zug are almost on the objective and have taken no fire.

Towards the end of the turn the SBF force spot another infantry team crossing the road to sector C.

I'm now convinced he's splitting his squads, I haven't seen any squad sized teams crossing the road, they are all small 4 or 5 man sized elements.

The armour contacts also brighten up. Are they moving?

The dispositions and turn's end.

SITMAP

His lack of use of whatever armour he has at the objective is telling. Either he's waiting for something else to arrive or he knows he's outgunned and outnumbered and doesn't dare risk poking his head out. I suspect the latter as surely whatever he is waiting for would have arrived by now. Perhaps because he doesn't have that much armour? Hmmmm. I have only had two armour contacts at the objective too, I assume there's another over there as they tend to travel in threes.

On the left Operation Russenjagd will continue with a push down the right side of the stream where the AT rifle teams were positioned and I'm bringing the StuG over to the left to put more fire onto the trees.

On the right I'm going to move 2 Zug of 3 Kompanie forward slightly so they can see/hear a bit further into his rear.

I'm also thinking of doing something bold, but we'll see how things shake out.

MMM

Edited November 18, 2021 by Monty's Mighty Moustache

[George MC]

Great stuff thx. Hope you feeling better?

cheery!

[Monty's Mighty Moustache]

35 minutes ago, George MC said:

Great stuff thx. Hope you feeling better?

cheery!

Yes thanks @George MC, all recovered. It's only November though so I'm sure it will visit us again soon.

Keep an eye out for the next turn update, it's a doozy!

MMM

[George MC]

1 hour ago, Monty's Mighty Moustache said:

Yes thanks @George MC, all recovered. It's only November though so I'm sure it will visit us again soon.

Keep an eye out for the next turn update, it's a doozy!

MMM

Ah good to hear. yeah feel your pain our household being regularly swept by various germs, viruses and bugs. Toddlers are just mobile disease vectors!

 

Ah look forward to the next update - its top stuff