Issue in SF2 with victory points and a mixed regular Syrian/insurgents force

[Zveroboy1]

So I am working on a scenario where I have the defending AI with a mixed regular Syrians and insurgents force. I give them three different zones with occupy victory points. I play test the scenario, hit cease fire and the two objectives occupied by regular Syrian troops score VPs normally but the third objective occupied by insurgents scores zero points.

If I replace insurgents with regular Syrians the third location scores VPs normally.

Is this a known issue? And can someone think of an existing SF2 scenario that has both regular Syrians and insurgents on the same side?

It is probable that I am not doing something right but I double checked several times.

 

 

[domfluff]

I haven't had the chance to test this yet, but my starting point would be to check if this same problem occurs with other mixed forces (say, US and US Marines).

This is a conventional scenario, not a QB?

Edited August 23, 2021 by domfluff

[Zveroboy1]

Yes good point. It could be an issue with mixed forces in general rather than something that only affects insurgents. But in case it is specifically caused by insurgents and someone else wants to test it, I used a mix of reserve Syrians and uncon combatants.

I'll have a look at the two scenarios you mentioned on discord, Trident Valley and Passage at Wilcox later. Thanks for your help.

[Zveroboy1]

Okay after testing this thing a bit more thoroughly I think this is how it works :

- Spies and combatants do NOT count for terrain objectives set to occupy.

-However combatants and VBIEDs DO count for terrain objectives set to touch. (spies I am not sure)

-Fighters do count for both like normal units.

 

So this had nothing to do with mixed forces actually like I originally thought.

Perhaps this was common knowledge I don't know. I had a quick look at the manual but didn't see anything about it but maybe I missed it. It is a bit puzzling because I made a couple of scenarios with uncons before but never noticed this.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Zveroboy1

[Sgt.Squarehead]

42 minutes ago, Zveroboy1 said:

- Spies and combatants do NOT count for terrain objectives set to occupy.

That needs reporting IMHO.....Prety sure @MOS:96B2P & I bumped into this while testing something, I forget what exactly, but IIRC we were having difficulty figuring out why Red wasn't being credited with VPs.

It sounds like a partial remnant of the (borderline game breaking) 'Red Occupy Bug' from CM:SF1. 

@IanL This may be one for you.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[Zveroboy1]

Spies it makes sense. Combatants it is debatable I suppose. But yes I don't know whether it is on purpose or not.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

18 minutes ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Combatants it is debatable I suppose. But yes I don't know whether it is on purpose or not.

This would definitely cause issues in play.....There are a lot of scenarios out there that feature Combatants, especially user made scenarios.

If neither the designers or players know about this (& I certainly didn't, although I was aware the scoring could be odd for reasons that were unclear at the time) it could lead to some very confusing outcomes.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[domfluff]

It's certainly not documented. I do wonder whether it's intentional. I agree that it can and has caused confusion.

[Sgt.Squarehead]

Wonder if it might be linked to their 'concealment bonus' somehow?

[domfluff]

I can definitely see why Spies and VBIED can't occupy objectives (the latter would have difficulty occupying anything for very long).

I can also see it as a deliberate decision - stealthed combatants with short target arcs could well be a degenerate strategy.

[Erwin]

4 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Okay after testing this thing a bit more thoroughly I think this is how it works :

- Spies and combatants do NOT count for terrain objectives set to occupy.

-However combatants and VBIEDs DO count for terrain objectives set to touch. (spies I am not sure)

-Fighters do count for both like normal units.

My experience is going back many years now so patches and updates may have changed things.  But IIRC, units that have no ammo are not counted for OCCUPY.  Not sure about TOUCH.

[A Canadian Cat]

7 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

7 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Combatants it is debatable I suppose. But yes I don't know whether it is on purpose or not.

This would definitely cause issues in play.....There are a lot of scenarios out there that feature Combatants, especially user made scenarios.

If neither the designers or players know about this (& I certainly didn't, although I was aware the scoring could be odd for reasons that were unclear at the time) it could lead to some very confusing outcomes.

Combatants are just soldiers without proper uniforms and likely low training levels. They defiantly should count for holding objectives IMHO. Spies I have no idea I guess I think they should count but I have never put any thought into it.

@Zveroboy1 can you PM me a link to your test. I'll check first of course but I can use it in the bug report.

 

4 hours ago, domfluff said:

I can definitely see why Spies and VBIED can't occupy objectives (the latter would have difficulty occupying anything for very long).

LOL VBIED's could preserve (or not) an objective though (just a joke not serious at all)

[Zveroboy1]

Spies definitely shouldn't be able to occupy terrain objectives. First simply because they are unarmed dudes and militarily you can't really occupy anything with just a cell phone. Secondly in practice it would become be like playing a game of hide and seek with gollum. Since they are almost invisible if they are not moving, you'd have to painstakingly enter and search every single building which could be quite tedious. In my experience, it happens that sometimes you don't even spot them right away when entering a building and you have to spend several minutes inside in order to finally reveal them.

Re-reading the SF1 manual, it sounds as if initially only spies and probably VBIEDs could benefit from the stealth setting. Then later combatants might have been flagged with the same capacity. Perhaps this took place during development even before the game was released. But it is possible that when the stealth tag was extended to combatants, they also gained this additional feature -not being able to occupy terrain objectives- as an unintended side effect.

Of course this is just speculation on my part.

@IanL I only did a series of quick and dirty tests, so I'll have to put together something a bit more tidy.

[domfluff]

Combatants have always been stealthy in CMSF.

The only real change there with CMSF 2 has been that civ density protects them whilst quick moving, which means the AI can actually use it.

[Zveroboy1]

I was thinking maybe this was something that happened during development hence the reason why the SF1 manual states combatants don't benefit from stealth. Then later before the game was released they changed it.

But anyway it doesn't really matter.

Now I can't reproduce the bug with a test scenario. In the test I made, combatants do count for occupy terrain objectives. So I imagine it only happens under certain circumstances.  combination of factors, this is really puzzling.

 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Zveroboy1

[Zveroboy1]

Okay I think I finally nailed it.

 

IF civilian density is set to NONE or SPARSE everything is fine :

- Any unit except spies, whether the unit is regular or uncon counts for the purpose of determining both occupy and touch terrain objectives.

- Spies count for touch terrain objectives like other units do but they can't occupy.

 

So far so good.

 

IF however you set civilian density to LIGHT or HIGHER, here is what happens :

- Now combatants don't count for terrain objectives set to occupy.

 

Test 1 - Civilian density set to SPARSE :

Now same thing but with LIGHT civilian density :

 

Just to make sure I also did these two tests with a regular Syrian unit present on the map in case it had something to do with mixed regulars/uncons forces. But it didn't affect the results.

 

If you want to test it yourself, select the scenario under battles, pick red attacker, give a quick movement order to every group of uncons towards the terrain objectives right in front of them. After one turn, once they have all reached the objectives, hit cease fire and check the victory points. First try the scenario with SPARSE civilian density then try with LIGHT civilian density and compare the results.

Uncons terrain objective test.rar

[MOS:96B2P]

8 minutes ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Okay I think I finally nailed it.

IF civilian density is set to NONE or SPARSE everything is fine :

- Any unit except spies, whether the unit is regular or uncon counts for the purpose of determining both occupy and touch terrain objectives.

- Spies count for touch terrain objectives like other units do but they can't occupy.

 

+1.  Good job!!!  Thank you! 

[Vergeltungswaffe]

16 minutes ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Okay I think I finally nailed it.

 

IF civilian density is set to NONE or SPARSE everything is fine :

- Any unit except spies, whether the unit is regular or uncon counts for the purpose of determining both occupy and touch terrain objectives.

- Spies count for touch terrain objectives like other units do but they can't occupy.

 

So far so good.

 

IF however you set civilian density to LIGHT or HIGHER, here is what happens :

- Now combatants don't count for terrain objectives set to occupy.

 

Test 1 - Civilian density set to SPARSE :

Now same thing but with LIGHT civilian density :

 

Just to make sure I also did these two tests with a regular Syrian unit present on the map in case it had something to do with mixed regulars/uncons forces. But it didn't affect the results.

 

If you want to test it yourself, select the scenario under battles, pick red attacker, give a quick movement order to every group of uncons towards the terrain objectives right in front of them. After one turn, once they have all reached the objectives, hit cease fire and check the victory points. First try the scenario with SPARSE civilian density then try with LIGHT civilian density and compare the results.

Uncons terrain objective test.rar 6.14 kB · 0 downloads

Well done.

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

9 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Okay I think I finally nailed it.

Outstanding! 

[domfluff]

Good work man, well done.

When CMSF 2 was first released Civilian density didn't work at all, so I'm guessing this was broken then.

[sburke]

15 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Okay I think I finally nailed it.

IF civilian density is set to NONE or SPARSE everything is fine :

good detective work.  It is being escalated to figure out if there is any logic to it or just a bug.  My own personal opinion is fighter/combatants/regular troops shouldn't matter.  It is your armed enemy.  Spies yeah I could see being excluded.

[MOS:96B2P]

19 hours ago, Zveroboy1 said:

Okay I think I finally nailed it.

 

IF civilian density is set to NONE or SPARSE everything is fine :

- Any unit except spies, whether the unit is regular or uncon counts for the purpose of determining both occupy and touch terrain objectives.

- Spies count for touch terrain objectives like other units do but they can't occupy.

 

So far so good.

 

IF however you set civilian density to LIGHT or HIGHER, here is what happens :

- Now combatants don't count for terrain objectives set to occupy.

 

Test 1 - Civilian density set to SPARSE :

Now same thing but with LIGHT civilian density :

 

Just to make sure I also did these two tests with a regular Syrian unit present on the map in case it had something to do with mixed regulars/uncons forces. But it didn't affect the results.

 

If you want to test it yourself, select the scenario under battles, pick red attacker, give a quick movement order to every group of uncons towards the terrain objectives right in front of them. After one turn, once they have all reached the objectives, hit cease fire and check the victory points. First try the scenario with SPARSE civilian density then try with LIGHT civilian density and compare the results.

Uncons terrain objective test.rar 6.14 kB · 0 downloads

Hmm, I wonder if the old behavior, of occupy objectives not working for combatants, is baked into older maps originally created in CMSF1.  I tested this on a map originally created in CMSF1.  The combatants are still not getting points for an occupy objective.  I deleted and re-purchased the combatants but they still did not get points for an occupy objective. 

I then tested on a map created in CMSF2 and occupy objectives worked for combatants with civilian density set to none.............. 

Edited August 24, 2021 by MOS:96B2P

[Sgt.Squarehead]

36 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

Hmm, I wonder if the old behavior, of occupy objectives not working for combatants, is baked into older maps originally created in CMSF1.  I tested this on a map originally created in CMSF1.  The combatants are still not getting points for an occupy objective.  I deleted and re-purchased the combatants but they still did not get points for an occupy objective. 

I then tested on a map created in CMSF2 and occupy objectives worked for combatants with civilian density set to none.............. 

Now that is interesting.....I seem to recall having some issues using a ported map, but I don't remeber what, or which (it may have been one of @37mm's conversions for CM:H&E, they came from all manner of sources). 

Edited August 24, 2021 by Sgt.Squarehead

[37mm]

2 hours ago, Sgt.Squarehead said:

Now that is interesting.....I seem to recall having some issues using a ported map, but I don't remeber what, or which (it may have been one of @37mm's conversions for CM:H&E, they came from all manner of sources). 

@puje had the same issue whilst making his "Year of the Rat" campaign on your delta map... that's all CMSF2 content.

[Zveroboy1]

Hmm not sure what to make of that then. I thought I had managed to isolate the problem.