Bulletpoint Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 OK so I discovered this weird thing that only happens in some missions: Infantry will fire rifles and other small arms against enemy light armour such as halftracks and armoured cars. This happens in CMFB Probing around Potau for example. I've seeen infantry happily fire rifles against light armour from as far as 250 metres, to no effect apart from getting spotted and killed of course. BUT when I make a test scenario, they don't do it. I tried to make the infantry conscript (to make them stupid and maybe make mistakes), make it really dark (to make it possible for them to think they might be shooting at a truck maybe), tried various ranges and various light armour vehicles as targets... In all test cases, infantry don't open fire unless the vehicles get into Panzerfaust range or grenade range, and even then, they only fire the appropriate weapons. Yes, in the Probing around Potau scenario, they open up with all small arms against targets they have no chance of damaging. What am I overlooking here? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Halftracks are vulnerable to smallarms fire. They penetrate easily, it just takes a lot of penetrations to disable them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 29, 2021 Author Share Posted May 29, 2021 (edited) 59 minutes ago, Redwolf said: Halftracks are vulnerable to smallarms fire. They penetrate easily, it just takes a lot of penetrations to disable them. Yes, but this is not about halftracks but armoured cars like the Greyhound, and also the M8 Gun Carriage... Normally, troops will only fire small arms against such open-topped vehicles if the commander sticks his head out, or if there's a big elevation difference so that it's possible to shoot down into the open hatch. But neither is the case here... So I'm pretty puzzled. Edited May 29, 2021 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: the Greyhound, and also the M8 Gun Carriage... Normally, troops will only fire small arms against such open-topped vehicles if the commander sticks his head out In a recent scenario (CMFB Rollbahn D campaign) inf definitely did fire at and then assault a Greyhound. It seemed like there were a lot of penetrations with little effect - but there is probably a cumulative effect of damage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Without the capacity at the in-laws' to set up a test, might it be more to do with motivation levels than experience? Or a combination of high motivation and low experience? And maybe poor leadership? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Check the ammo? Some of the German 7.92 is SmK, armor piercing. (I think I got it the abbreviation...right.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 29, 2021 Share Posted May 29, 2021 Open topped and unbuttoned vehicles usually get the small arms treatment. Closed-in and closed vehicles usually don't, unless the armor's particularly thin. For Greyhound, if the TC doesn't dare peer over the top he's functionally blind. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chuckdyke Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 7 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: What am I overlooking here? Possibly FOW which you don't have in testing mode. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 30, 2021 Author Share Posted May 30, 2021 Just to recap, these are open-topped but buttoned vehicles. The scenario has a convoy of US light armour crash head first into the player's German forces. Visibility is 200m max and usually I only spot enemy vehicles at 60m. Some US vehicles are unbuttoned, others buttoned due to taking fire earlier up the road. Of course, at close range, my guys will throw grenades and fire Fausts, but the weird thing is that they also fire away with MGs, rifles, MP40 and StG44. I understand they try to shoot the commander of unbuttoned vehicles, but they also fire at the buttoned ones. When I test it in the editor, I can drive my vehicles right in front of the Germans and they will only throw grenades, not fire a single shot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 10 hours ago, c3k said: Check the ammo? Some of the German 7.92 is SmK, armor piercing. (I think I got it the abbreviation...right.) Yeah, it might be this if in one scenario you've had the truppen nab AP from somewhere and in the test they've only got normal rounds. Their assessment of the level of danger they represent to the target might be increased if they have specialist tools. Combined with soft factors... might be difficult to pinpoint the parameters of the combination... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Freyberg Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 I remember a battle I played some long time ago, where I had a company of Vickers MGs on a ridge. At long range (over 500m), I targeted a series of armoured cars and gun-halftracks, concentrating all the MG fire at each vehicle in turn. I lost some MG teams, but the results were spectacular - light armour is definitely highly vulnerable to bullets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 30, 2021 Author Share Posted May 30, 2021 40 minutes ago, Freyberg said: I remember a battle I played some long time ago, where I had a company of Vickers MGs on a ridge. At long range (over 500m), I targeted a series of armoured cars and gun-halftracks, concentrating all the MG fire at each vehicle in turn. I lost some MG teams, but the results were spectacular - light armour is definitely highly vulnerable to bullets. Yep, this can work if you're on a ridge so you can fire down into the open crew compartments. Especially if the range is long enough to get some plunging fire effect too. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
domfluff Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 2 hours ago, womble said: Yeah, it might be this if in one scenario you've had the truppen nab AP from somewhere and in the test they've only got normal rounds. Their assessment of the level of danger they represent to the target might be increased if they have specialist tools. Combined with soft factors... might be difficult to pinpoint the parameters of the combination... Good to see you back Womble 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 I set up a quick test scenario, a greyhound and some german infantry and HMGs. The infantry fires on the M8 without hesitation. They get penetrations but no knockouts. The Greyhounds see them just fine buttoned up. No vision problems there. They engage the infantry with the gun and MG. Opening them up instantly gets a casualty, so the .50cal doesn't go into action. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted May 30, 2021 Share Posted May 30, 2021 In the real world some US tank destroyer units hated turning in their M10 tank destroyers for M18 Hellcats, and a few units even reverted back to M10s. Because M18 couldn't stand up to 7.62 mg fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 31, 2021 Author Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 16 hours ago, Redwolf said: I set up a quick test scenario, a greyhound and some german infantry and HMGs. The infantry fires on the M8 without hesitation. They get penetrations but no knockouts. Thanks for helping out. This is with the Greyhounds buttoned? What is the range? Firing from front or side? Edited May 31, 2021 by Bulletpoint 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 Could perhaps the differnt AI order settings play a part in this ? - causious vs active for example - Max assult or assult vs quick etc... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 31, 2021 Author Share Posted May 31, 2021 45 minutes ago, Glubokii Boy said: Could perhaps the differnt AI order settings play a part in this ? - causious vs active for example - Max assult or assult vs quick etc... Hmmm... you mean the AI order settings selected for the Germans would still affect them even when the Germans are controlled by a human player? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 7 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said: Hmmm... you mean the AI order settings selected for the Germans would still affect them even when the Germans are controlled by a human player? ahha... No ! That would only affect the AI side i'm guessing...Not the AI behaviour of the player troops... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 4 hours ago, Bulletpoint said: Thanks for helping out. This is with the Greyhounds buttoned? What is the range? Firing from front or side? Buttoned. Range very close, 20-100m. M8 sitting in between the squads, MHGs from the rear. All looked good to me. Edited May 31, 2021 by Redwolf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 31, 2021 Author Share Posted May 31, 2021 2 minutes ago, Redwolf said: Buttoned. Range very close, 20-100m. M8 sitting in between the squads, MHGs from the rear. All looked good to me. This is so strange, because I can't reproduce it here. Just to be clear, you didn't order the infantry to fire on the vehicles, they did it by themselves? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 31, 2021 Author Share Posted May 31, 2021 2 hours ago, Glubokii Boy said: ahha... No ! That would only affect the AI side i'm guessing...Not the AI behaviour of the player troops... Just to make sure, I went and tested it. Active or normal stance made no difference. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted May 31, 2021 Share Posted May 31, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Bulletpoint said: This is so strange, because I can't reproduce it here. Just to be clear, you didn't order the infantry to fire on the vehicles, they did it by themselves? Yeah. I just placed them as the editor did. Let me see whether I can find the test scenario I used. Which game are you using? I use CMFB. I switched to HMG34 as the smallarms, cuts down on the panzerfaust shots. Edited May 31, 2021 by Redwolf 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 31, 2021 Author Share Posted May 31, 2021 39 minutes ago, Redwolf said: Yeah. I just placed them as the editor did. Let me see whether I can find the test scenario I used. Which game are you using? I use CMFB. I switched to HMG34 as the smallarms, cuts down on the panzerfaust shots. I'm also using CMFB, latest version. If you can find the test scenario, I'd like to try it out and see what happens here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted May 31, 2021 Author Share Posted May 31, 2021 Also I just added a HMG and LMG versions of both 42 and 34 to my test, with no difference. They don't shoot either, even when parading the Greyhound 37 metres in front of them with the flank facing towards the teams. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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