Running from buildings.

[semmes]

[Aragorn2002]

13 minutes ago, semmes said:

Your best post so far.

[semmes]

Indeed.

 

I am not quite sure what the v2.11 patch is supposed to be doing with buildings.

 

Troops move even sooner to the lower floor, they leave the building even sooner and they still run towards the firing units.

"Hide" is not working in buildings, they get some stray bullets, they mill around and they start shooting.

If they are "Pinned" the Hide is not working but Arc-of-fire is, so with a pretty small one they cannot shoot, then they obey the Hide.

 

I also got a frozen dead German, standing, falling backwards and dead. But that's only graphics so it's not important.

 

 

[semmes]

Still, there is a glitch somewhere.

[semmes]

The war became like the weather, something over which one had no control but which could make one reasonably happy or utterly miserable at will.

N. Gladden.

[MikeyD]

'Troops' is too generic a term. Are you talking about fanatical SS? veteran Russian infantry? highly motivated but green partisans? low motivation conscript Volkssturm? Fanatics will most likely die in place for you. 

Also, there's the question of building type. Is it a small building porous to fire or a stout build that bullets bounce off? Which side is the front door and which side is the back, or does it have only one exit? Also, what's firing at them, SMGs, HMGs or tank cannons? An old joke of mine is the best way to deploy in a building is to deploy BEHIND the building. Putting troops in the upper story of a building in like hanging a bullseye around their necks.

Edited May 9, 2021 by MikeyD

[zmoney]

When give your units a hide command you must give them a cover arc too. Because even on hide they can spot and will engage 

[semmes]

7 hours ago, zmoney said:

When give your units a hide command you must give them a cover arc too. Because even on hide they can spot and will engage 

Not really.

It was not happening in the open and it is not happening in the open.

9 hours ago, MikeyD said:

'Troops' is too generic a term. Are you talking about fanatical SS? veteran Russian infantry? highly motivated but green partisans? low motivation conscript Volkssturm? Fanatics will most likely die in place for you. 

Also, there's the question of building type. Is it a small building porous to fire or a stout build that bullets bounce off? Which side is the front door and which side is the back, or does it have only one exit? Also, what's firing at them, SMGs, HMGs or tank cannons? An old joke of mine is the best way to deploy in a building is to deploy BEHIND the building. Putting troops in the upper story of a building in like hanging a bullseye around their necks.

v2.11 is not a generic term.

An old post not of mine was about troops leaving buildings -cover, then we got the first patch and it was better -not as bad as before, now we got another patch and we go back to the beginning, not what I would call an improvement. 

* FIXED: Soldiers on upper building floors would inappropriately react to suppression from enemy fire.      Not really.
* FIXED: Infantry under fire seek cover in the direction of the fire (further adjustments from last patch).    Not yet.

"Some stray bullets" is generic, but hopefully you get the idea.

"Even sooner" is generic... whatever the troops, whatever the building, now is happening faster.

And yes, thank you, I do expect Fanatics to hold longer than Green, under the same circumstances. Same being the point.

I did no mention troops, fire o building type... because it was the same, the reaction is different, faster, actually.

We have beautiful, tall buildings, but don't use them. Well, defending a town could be a bit... esoteric.

 

Amateurs talk about strategy, while professionals talk about logistics. Military maxim.

 

 

 

[chuckdyke]

When you occupy a building, ask yourself the question why you occupy that building. Example was it planned, opportunity or an emergency? 

[Ultradave]

2 hours ago, semmes said:

Not really.

It was not happening in the open and it is not happening in the open.

v2.11 is not a generic term.

An old post not of mine was about troops leaving buildings -cover, then we got the first patch and it was better -not as bad as before, now we got another patch and we go back to the beginning, not what I would call an improvement. 

* FIXED: Soldiers on upper building floors would inappropriately react to suppression from enemy fire.      Not really.
* FIXED: Infantry under fire seek cover in the direction of the fire (further adjustments from last patch).    Not yet.

"Some stray bullets" is generic, but hopefully you get the idea.

"Even sooner" is generic... whatever the troops, whatever the building, now is happening faster.

And yes, thank you, I do expect Fanatics to hold longer than Green, under the same circumstances. Same being the point.

I did no mention troops, fire o building type... because it was the same, the reaction is different, faster, actually.

We have beautiful, tall buildings, but don't use them. Well, defending a town could be a bit... esoteric.

 

Amateurs talk about strategy, while professionals talk about logistics. Military maxim.

 

 

 

By specifics what is being asked for is a detailed description of the situation, and then exactly what happens. If you can provide a save game that illustrates the behavior then that would really help in trying to narrow this down. The update to all the games that Red Thunder just got and is built into CW pretty well eliminated that behavior as far as testers and users can see. If you have a save that shows soldiers running from cover TOWARD the enemy, please post it here so someone can take a look at it. Thanks.

Dave

[semmes]

Two saved turns in one of the runs where it is happening. I haven't been using dropbox for some time...

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j7zahu0gm58v40i/Factory X 55.bts?dl=0

https://www.dropbox.com/s/j7zahu0gm58v40i/Factory X 55.bts?dl=0

There was a door, by chance, in the back, something important for some people. What I have noticed is that it depends on how far the enemy is and that, maybe, it's only going to happen if they are out of command.

By the way, did you mention anything about moving to the ground floor?

 

[semmes]

Ups!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/81c5x28hrr85wih/Factory X 53.bts?dl=0

[RockinHarry]

4 hours ago, semmes said:

Ups!

https://www.dropbox.com/s/81c5x28hrr85wih/Factory X 53.bts?dl=0

Guess you´re refering to german 2nd squad/A team of 1st Platoon. That poor guys retreat out the front door (and towards multiple enemies) indeed. I´ve no explanations in the offer. I just can tell german setup in factory area is very very bad. Not just cause split squads are more brittle, they´re also out of contact with any their HQ. Adding to this comes many leaders are in Minus range as well. Wonder that not more of all the split squads do similar stupid (born from panic) things. I´d try keeping squads and their HQ together and not exposing them to massed enemy fire from multiple directions. Put them in basements (ground floors), keyhole positions and slug it out only when the russians are approaching in the open. So that 2nd squad/A team´s behavior seems a rare exception (FUBAR), but rather born from bad setup and combat tactics.

[semmes]

Guess you´re referring to German 2nd squad/A team of 1st Platoon.

- and the other one too, x55

That poor guys retreat out the front door (and towards multiple enemies) indeed. I´ve no explanations in the offer. I just can tell...

- yes my dog ate my homework too

So that 2nd squad/A team´s behaviour seems a rare exception (FUBAR),

- sorry, I thought you had no explanation

but rather born from bad setup and combat tactics.

- wait, the AI changes its behaviour when it gets angry.

- "What I have noticed is that it depends on how far the enemy is and that, maybe, it's only going to happen if they are out of command."

 ...and I am sure you have noticed how carefully the AI is always deploying every single squad in command.

 

Let's say it's still happening, I'm fine with that.

Any thoughts on when are we -AI included- going to deploy on higher floors without troops running downstairs?

 

We are going to carry the war to Africa, but I fear we will not be as successful as Scipio was. Cleburne about Hood.

[Ultradave]

11 hours ago, semmes said:

Any thoughts on when are we -AI included- going to deploy on higher floors without troops running downstairs?

 

Well, good question, because this is the first time any of this unwanted behavior has been seen that I know of since they thought it had been fixed for the updates for each game. In fact there were Russian troops in the German campaign who ran toward German troops from a building in the first scenario and it was seen to be fixed. In fact, the general behavior across all the titles has changed to troops in good cover being very hard to dislodge.

So I'll report this with the saves and we'll see what happens. That includes troops changing levels. What is supposed to happen, and seems to, is that under heavy indirect fire they will go to a lower level, but shouldn't for small arms fire unless maybe they are poor troops and are panicked (these guys were panicked).

Dave

[semmes]

Thanks.

[ASL Veteran]

5 hours ago, Ultradave said:

Well, good question, because this is the first time any of this unwanted behavior has been seen that I know of since they thought it had been fixed for the updates for each game. In fact there were Russian troops in the German campaign who ran toward German troops from a building in the first scenario and it was seen to be fixed. In fact, the general behavior across all the titles has changed to troops in good cover being very hard to dislodge.

So I'll report this with the saves and we'll see what happens. That includes troops changing levels. What is supposed to happen, and seems to, is that under heavy indirect fire they will go to a lower level, but shouldn't for small arms fire unless maybe they are poor troops and are panicked (these guys were panicked).

Dave

I don't know if this was changed at some point or not, but troops on a higher level will always drop down to the first floor if under heavy fire - as in the suppression meter maxes out.  It makes no difference what type of fire it is.  Sometimes they will curl up in the fetal position for a while first, and maybe they will stay up there for a  bit, but eventually they will always run to the first floor.  If they are subjected to continuous heavy fire on the first floor eventually they will exit the building, although they should typically exit the building in the direction of the friendly edge so that they can put the building between themselves and the enemy.  Infantry don't normally just sit in a building under heavy fire forever and ever in the game, although how resistant those troops are will be dependent upon whether they are in command and control and what quality level the troops are in terms of morale and their state (broken, panic, nervous).  Dropping to the first floor or exiting the building is actually normal behavior - it just depends upon whether the examples given are outside of the norm or not (and what the expectations are of the person reporting the issue as compared to how the game is supposed to act by design)

[RockinHarry]

17 hours ago, semmes said:

Guess you´re referring to German 2nd squad/A team of 1st Platoon.

- and the other one too, x55

We are going to carry the war to Africa, but I fear we will not be as successful as Scipio was. Cleburne about Hood.

Okay, found that one (2. Plt, 2nd Squad/B team). Just had a watchout for units moving off in given turn (x53). Found its original location by looking where the single wounded is still located (a building farther north, 2nd story).

@Ultradave Is there an additional "rout" check for units located very close to a burning vehicle maybe? That´s what I found both the mentioned infantry teams have in common. The move off of one team very precisely coincided with a truck going up in flames just outside the building, 1 AS away. Similar for the other team. There was a burning truck about 2 AS away (from team´s original position in a building).

[RockinHarry]

9 minutes ago, ASL Veteran said:

I don't know if this was changed at some point or not, but troops on a higher level will always drop down to the first floor if under heavy fire - as in the suppression meter maxes out.  It makes no difference what type of fire it is.  Sometimes they will curl up in the fetal position for a while first, and maybe they will stay up there for a  bit, but eventually they will always run to the first floor.  If they are subjected to continuous heavy fire on the first floor eventually they will exit the building, although they should typically exit the building in the direction of the friendly edge so that they can put the building between themselves and the enemy.  Infantry don't normally just sit in a building under heavy fire forever and ever in the game, although how resistant those troops are will be dependent upon whether they are in command and control and what quality level the troops are in terms of morale and their state (broken, panic, nervous).  Dropping to the first floor or exiting the building is actually normal behavior - it just depends upon whether the examples given are outside of the norm or not (and what the expectations are of the person reporting the issue as compared to how the game is supposed to act by design)

there in fact would be a far simpler solution to break contact and avoid enemy fire from within a building. Just make a "face" away from enemy wall (face command toward friendly wall). This breaks LOF in most cases, unless enemy has LOF opportunities from multiple directions off course. This combined with follow up hide command makes the AI stop direct firing through loss of contact. At least works well when the enemy is not at close combat range yet. Maybe the TacAI can be taught a similar method, making it an alternative for changing floors or exiting a building.

[BFCElvis]

2 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Okay, found that one (2. Plt, 2nd Squad/B team). Just had a watchout for units moving off in given turn (x53). Found its original location by looking where the single wounded is still located (a building farther north, 2nd story).

HHmmm....I looked at the unit you've mentioned and I'm not sure that I see anything wrong. 2. Plt, 2nd Squad/B team. I focused on them. They were taking a lot of fire. They were out of C2. The team leader has a -1. They returned fire until they took a casualty. Then they ran downstairs and out the back of the building and ran behind another before getting cover behind the wall. They then all got prone. I played out the next 15 turns and they didn't get a scratch. That is the definition of seeking better cover, right?

Additionally of note, in the building next to them is 2. Plt, 1st Squad/A Team. They were also on the 2nd floor of their building taking the same amount of fire as 2. Plt, 2nd Squad/B team but they didn't take any casualties until about 10 minutes later. And like the other team, they did not move down from the 2nd floor until they took a casualty. Then they went down to the 1st floor but did not leave the building. 

The bottom line of what I saw was that it was working as I'd expect it to. 

 

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, BFCElvis said:

HHmmm....I looked at the unit you've mentioned and I'm not sure that I see anything wrong. 2. Plt, 2nd Squad/B team. I focused on them. They were taking a lot of fire. They were out of C2. The team leader has a -1. They returned fire until they took a casualty. Then they ran downstairs and out the back of the building and ran behind another before getting cover behind the wall. They then all got prone. I played out the next 15 turns and they didn't get a scratch. That is the definition of seeking better cover, right?

Additionally of note, in the building next to them is 2. Plt, 1st Squad/A Team. They were also on the 2nd floor of their building taking the same amount of fire as 2. Plt, 2nd Squad/B team but they didn't take any casualties until about 10 minutes later. And like the other team, they did not move down from the 2nd floor until they took a casualty. Then they went down to the 1st floor but did not leave the building. 

The bottom line of what I saw was that it was working as I'd expect it to. 

 

Yep, that was my general appreciation as well ( see my post further above https://community.battlefront.com/topic/139219-running-from-buildings/?do=findComment&comment=1871151 )

Just thought of maybe the one thing both teams have in common, the nearby burning trucks, maybe trigger a different "back off" routine, interrupting the new "stick in place" one? Fear from cook-off and colateral damage maybe. Just an idea. In my own games I did not see any unusual things or rout from buildings behavior yet. But I also tend to avoid leaving my troops in untenable situations like in @semmes example save game. I also got to invent a terrain trigger - retreat order scripting sequence in order to move threatend units to a switch position. In case I don´t want an AI unit defend a building to the last man.

[RockinHarry]

"Car bomb panic!"  Whether it´s a feature or a bug I can´t tell. But it´s there. Highly suppressed infantry in modular buildings will bug out, if a nearby (friendly) truck goes up in flames. Noticed this effect up to range of 2-3 AS (~30m).  I can recreate this effect in one my own test missions. Also seen infantry moving out the front door (towards enemy), but most will use the back door.

It´s sufficient to place an immobilized (vehicle state) truck in editor. If it gets hit and shot up directly or by some stray bullets it sooner or later starts to burn. From then on expect some car bomb panic. 

[BFCElvis]

20 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

"Car bomb panic!"  Whether it´s a feature or a bug I can´t tell. But it´s there. Highly suppressed infantry in modular buildings will bug out, if a nearby (friendly) truck goes up in flames. Noticed this effect up to range of 2-3 AS (~30m).  I can recreate this effect in one my own test missions. Also seen infantry moving out the front door (towards enemy), but most will use the back door.

It´s sufficient to place an immobilized (vehicle state) truck in editor. If it gets hit and shot up directly or by some stray bullets it sooner or later starts to burn. From then on expect some car bomb panic. 

Yeah, what I saw in what I watched is what I would expect to see......Or maybe more accurately, not what I would think of as unexpected, given the conditions.

[chuckdyke]

If I see panic, I expect some irrational behaviour. They can run in any direction. Personally, I go to the bookshelf and do a read up on clever tactics. 

[Ultradave]

After discussion in the beta forums the consensus is that these guys uncontrollably panicked. "They chose poorly".  Looking at the whole map closely, several things may contribute to it.

1. They are under heavy small arms fire.

2. The truck right outside catches fire (may soon explode, who knows?)

3. At the same moment the truck catches fire they become aware of a MG in the woods behind them.

4. The whole complex of buildings is surrounded by enemies. No safe places to run. (but "we're gonna die if we stay here!")

5. They appear to be fleeing toward the friendly map edge, where there are large numbers of friendly troops. Yeah, there are enemies in the way, but they are making a dash for safety. I'm assuming that's the friendly map edge due to the large number of reinforcements/relief troops on the edge of the map and troops will try to flee toward the friendly edge. Can't tell for sure with just the save.

The fact that this panic is isolated to a couple instances is good. Most of them chose to stand and fight/die.

Ben wrote up a nice little storyline to go with it, if he'd like to post it here. It's pretty entertaining.

Dave