Running from buildings.

[BFCElvis]

3 hours ago, Ultradave said:

After discussion in the beta forums the consensus is that these guys uncontrollably panicked. "They chose poorly".  Looking at the whole map closely, several things may contribute to it.

1. They are under heavy small arms fire.

2. The truck right outside catches fire (may soon explode, who knows?)

3. At the same moment the truck catches fire they become aware of a MG in the woods behind them.

4. The whole complex of buildings is surrounded by enemies. No safe places to run. (but "we're gonna die if we stay here!")

5. They appear to be fleeing toward the friendly map edge, where there are large numbers of friendly troops. Yeah, there are enemies in the way, but they are making a dash for safety. I'm assuming that's the friendly map edge due to the large number of reinforcements/relief troops on the edge of the map and troops will try to flee toward the friendly edge. Can't tell for sure with just the save.

The fact that this panic is isolated to a couple instances is good. Most of them chose to stand and fight/die.

Ben wrote up a nice little storyline to go with it, if he'd like to post it here. It's pretty entertaining.

Dave

I disagree with some of what you said. The guys I watched, and took a screenshot of, did not choose poorly. They ran from a dangerous place to one that provided much greater cover.....at least for the 15 turns that I watched them. They chose very well. 

[semmes]

In no particular order...

"If it is too hot you get the hell out of there".
I do agree, I would like to see that more often. I thought the point is where you go.

Let's make scenarios with no lorries.
Actually let's make scenarios with no explosions, so the AI behaves.

If you are on the first floor and under fire, are you not going to be under fire on the ground floor of the same building?
Move away from that fire, like the other wall and hide: great idea.

Yes, if you don't shoot at them they don't shoot back. That would be another interesting scenario.
If you are under fire in a building... you leave the building, run in front of the building, get closer to the enemy and them take cover?
Maybe you could do that too running away from the enemy firing at you.
If you are in panic, are you planning the best posible cover for the next 10' ?
I wouldn't expect that.

Yes, in another post I mentioned something about a switch position.
Let's make "tenable-positions-only" scenarios, in case of a doubt give them a Tiger company.

Maybe an artillery round is going to explode in front of the door...

So if I am in Caen I am going to run towards the beach because I know there are Germans -a lot- there.
Do I know?
Yes friendly edge is a problem in itself. Right now, how "friendly" it is?, how do I know?
Away from that enemy sounds better. To the closest cover away from that enemy?

It is not good, it is better than before.

English is not my first language but this concept of "fixed" is alien to me.

Infantry will very rarely rout towards the enemy -but they will.
-Still working on that.
If the infantry in the upper floors run to the ground floor please stop shooting at them.
-Until we find something else.

Maybe the whole point is that we will always find an explanation for whatever it is instead of "there's work to be done".

 

I would use a quote from The Wolf -Pulp Fiction- but I cannot post it.

[Ultradave]

4 hours ago, BFCElvis said:

I disagree with some of what you said. The guys I watched, and took a screenshot of, did not choose poorly. They ran from a dangerous place to one that provided much greater cover.....at least for the 15 turns that I watched them. They chose very well. 

I think we watched different saves. In 55 I agree with you. They ran to a wall I think.  In 53 they ran out of the building, over a broken wall, into the open in front of a bunch of enemy. And died.

Dave

[Ultradave]

1 hour ago, semmes said:

If you are in panic, are you planning the best posible cover for the next 10' ?

Exactly.

 

 

[RockinHarry]

12 hours ago, Ultradave said:

After discussion in the beta forums the consensus is that these guys uncontrollably panicked. "They chose poorly".  Looking at the whole map closely, several things may contribute to it.

1. They are under heavy small arms fire.

2. The truck right outside catches fire (may soon explode, who knows?)

3. At the same moment the truck catches fire they become aware of a MG in the woods behind them.

4. The whole complex of buildings is surrounded by enemies. No safe places to run. (but "we're gonna die if we stay here!")

5. They appear to be fleeing toward the friendly map edge, where there are large numbers of friendly troops. Yeah, there are enemies in the way, but they are making a dash for safety. I'm assuming that's the friendly map edge due to the large number of reinforcements/relief troops on the edge of the map and troops will try to flee toward the friendly edge. Can't tell for sure with just the save.

The fact that this panic is isolated to a couple instances is good. Most of them chose to stand and fight/die.

Ben wrote up a nice little storyline to go with it, if he'd like to post it here. It's pretty entertaining.

Dave

Points 1. and 2.  combined is the sole reason for rout/evade from the building. The other points may explain the "evade to" destination AS and one can debate forever if they make sense or not. The current solution (or expedient) works fine for me and I´m thankful for it. In any way I´d avoid such tactically untenable situation, now knowing the reason for it. But one also can use it as exploit. Shoot up an enemy truck in flames and in case enemy infantry is in a nearby building, suppress the f... out of them next. One can be sure they are on the run in shortest of time. With "luck" they run into a hail of fire. Haven´t yet tested with friendly trucks and if they do a similar effect on enemy infantry in buildings when bursting in flames. I´ll test that next and that´ll be interesting I guess.

@semmes Is that your own mission design or where is it from?

[semmes]

- If you are in panic, are you planning the best posible cover for the next 10' ?

- Exactly.

Hopefully it doesn't mean run towards the guy firing at you either.

 

I uploaded The Factory v2 and now I am testing v2.11, with snow.

 

General Staff officers have no name. H. von Seeckt

[chuckdyke]

Pressing the Plus-Button gives us an idea of the mood of our unit. Once morale is on panic the AI makes just about a much sense. 

 

Edited May 14, 2021 by chuckdyke

[RockinHarry]

6 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

Pressing the Plus-Button gives us an idea of the mood of our unit. Once morale is on panic the AI makes just about a much sense. 

 

pre patch this was the best indicator for where a panicked unit is likely to go. Now the "evade" button has no function for units in buildings at all anymore. Still a handy tool for any other cases, though not actually for its main purpose. It´s still what the AIP does when routing. And any out of control player units off course. Basically a "quick" move order combined with a follow up "face". Likely vs. the perceived most threatening enemy units that caused the "evade" command. And with the inherent "quick" move part lies much of the trouble when it comes to destination action spot. As "quick" prefers speed, it will avoid any more slow going and better cover terrain usually. Think this is the main reason why routing (evading) units so oftenly run into lethal enemy fire zones.

[RockinHarry]

Btw, with bits of an effort one can use friendly trucks (normal ones, just carrying bits of extra small arms ammo) as sort of "truck bomb" to eject enemies from buildings as well. One the mentioned "exploits", but maybe similarly useful for some nasty mission designs. For my next little test runs I´ll try some the Supply trucks or maybe those carrying extra mortar ammo (mech formations). Though it seems burning friendly trucks have less of an ejecting effect on the enemy than his own friendly ones. At least with "effective" range to burning truck concerned. Fun stuff.

[chuckdyke]

5 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

extra small arms ammo

I can tell you small arms cartridges going off outside a firearm are relatively harmless. The case as it is the lesser mass becomes the projectile and it doesn't go far. Kind regards. 

[LukeFF]

3 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

 

 

Edited May 15, 2021 by LukeFF

[chuckdyke]

Not only US shooters reload, I lost count how many I did. Now happily retired, shoot air pistol as it is a lot cheaper. 

[RockinHarry]

Got to refine my above made statements a bit. The dividing line for stay or go from buildings is "shaken" morale. Then the burning vehicles give mentioned effect (trigger old evade behavior). So good quality troops will be far less affected from it (need more punishment for that large a morale drop) than low quality ones.

5 hours ago, chuckdyke said:

I can tell you small arms cartridges going off outside a firearm are relatively harmless. The case as it is the lesser mass becomes the projectile and it doesn't go far. Kind regards. 

think that´s not too much of a concern in the game actually. Main trigger for ejecting troops from buildings is mentioned "shaken" morale state and a vehicle (in this case a truck) that starts to burn. Whether it may cook off from loaded ammo types later seems of no further relevance. Tested with (german) supply truck type = heavy weapons. This one at least contains some HE ammo of the Schreck type and thus can explode.

[chuckdyke]

7 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

The dividing line for stay or go from buildings is "shaken" morale.

Thanks for doing the test. I am a little sloppy to find out little details like that. My troops appear to go through the floor instead

Edited May 15, 2021 by chuckdyke

[chuckdyke]

The German HQ didn't panic I suppose.