Engine 5 Wishlist

[Centurian52]

I can't recall hearing about a tank crew in WW2 getting into another tank (during the same engagement) after abandoning their own tank. It must have happened at least a few times in such a large war. But I'm guessing it would have been very rare.

ATG crews should probably be able to reman their guns if they abandon them after being panicked. At the very least they should follow the same rules as tank crews (they can reman their own gun, if the abandon it, just as tank crews can reman their own tank, but they can't reman other guns). It would probably even be reasonable for gun crews to follow somewhat more generous rules than tank crews, since I believe gun operation is simpler than tank operation. I have heard of at least a couple cases of someone who wasn't originally on a gun's crew manning the gun.

[RMM]

@Centurian52 Yeh, there were more than a few medals awarded for men single-handedly taking over an abandoned ATG and wrecking havoc on the enemy.

Edited August 30 by RMM

[RMM]

13 minutes ago, Erwin said:

While it would be good for leg units to be able to reman ATG's, the issue with tanks which was discussed years ago is the gamey prospect of players regularly remounting Crack crews replacing poor quality crews. 

Must admit I hadn't thought of such a move, and that would be a pretty lame, gamey move. On the other hand, that would also be quite a feat and a significant risk in the middle of most CM scraps, to have two crews get out of their vehicles cross over to wherever the 'other' one was and remount. Doesn't seem very practical in most scenarios. At the end of the day, I suppose it comes down to who one plays, but to make this impossible, when it was very much the opposite IRL, seems overkill in the opposite direction.

[Andrew Kulin]

I could probably say with confidence, in all my years playing, less than a handful of times have I hoped to be able to man a different tanks with a crew.  And only in cases where:

• Crew 1 abandons their tank, their tank becomes destroyed (either at time they abandon tank or a bit later), but they survive; and,
• somewhere nearby, Crew 2 abandons their tank, they are gunned down, and the opponent does not finish off the second tank, and,
• So I am left with a crew with no tank, looking at a tank with no crew, while a battle rages around them.

[PEB14]

I agree with @Centurian52: I've never come to WW2 accounts (I mean, realistic and historical ones, not some embellished, ultra-patriotic propagandistic accounts) where full crews from destroyed AFV go fight into another abandoned AFV in the same engagement. The only accounts I've come across are:

- a few crewmen go back into their own, immobilized tank to fire a few shots at the enemy

- single crewmen (generally, the tank unit leader) go into another (fully operational and not abandoned) tank to go on fighting.

I think it would be unrealistic to have tank crews boarding another AFV to fight in the field (same engagement). And while it occasionally occurs, tank crews shall NOT be used as dependable infantrymen while their vehicles are destroyed!

What I have come across for sure is:

- manning abandoned HMG

- manning abandoned AT guns (even for untrained crews)

- manning abandoned enemy weapons (especially sMG, LMG and HMG). That is impossible in CM while it was relatively common in the field.

[Général_Hiver]

On 8/29/2024 at 12:17 PM, arprince31 said:

I have mentioned this previously but for mortars and other artillery, do away with the requirement to have a line of sight from the observer to where the munitions are due to land. It should be possible to allow non line of sight, albeit with an impact on accuracy.

My two big wishes artillery wise would be first allowing for delay increments longer than 15 minutes. Then secondly, the ability to plan sequential fire missions with each battery. I know this is technically possible with TRPs, but these either require purchasing in quick battles, or in the case of scenarios, for the designer to have provided one with them beforehand.

[RMM]

To be frank, I don't think manning another tank is an option that happens all that often in CM either, but if it did, it would preclude something even more unrealistic, which is to @Andrew Kulin point. I have had that scenario, a number of times in many hours of playing, and it's at that moment that one realizes the two options - have them commandeer the AFV (if that were possible) or become infantry. That latter (and currently, only) choice is all too common in CM, and I would venture that's it's precisely because of not being able to use them anywhere or in anything else! Of the two ‘cheats’, I think allowing them to re-crew another AFV (tank or otherwise) would be a far better option and closer to reality.

 

As to the RL situation, the simple reality is that most such, ousted crew would never have been aware of an abandoned tank somewhere else that they could have commandeered. Had they been, then why wouldn’t they have? Yes, it was a very rare situation either way, but to make it completely impossible in CM, merely causes the even more unrealistic situation, where they are ‘converted’ into impromptu infantry. So, I think the argument comes down on the side of what would be practically possible in and closer to RL, which is that they could and should be able to commandeer an abandoned AFV, albeit with penalty.

[Andrew Kulin]

I would add to that, that if there is a dead crew member inside the tank, then it should not be allowed to re-man the tank.  I have to imagine that is not a pleasant thing, and would naturally deter anyone from wanting to be inside the vehicle.

And in spite of CM's unrealistic (instantaneous) remanning of crew positions, e.g., driver, when original crew member is wounded or killed.  Which is another thing that should be changed.

And I agree about artillery missions.  As far as I am concerned, when planning a mission, instead of 0-5-10-15 minute options to click, put up a user-entry box, and let them type in any delay time they want.  Or at least make that a fifth option.

[Redwolf]

Artillery should just work like in BFC's own TacOps4.

[Andrew Kulin]

5 hours ago, Redwolf said:

Artillery should just work like in BFC's own TacOps4.

And how is that?  I don't have TacOps 4 and I suspect a lot of others do not as well.

[Redwolf]

1 hour ago, Andrew Kulin said:

And how is that?  I don't have TacOps 4 and I suspect a lot of others do not as well.

Many moons ago I wrote this "TacOps for CMPlayers". Artillery is in the middle of the first page:

https://wavehh.dyndns.org/tacops4/tacops-for-cmplayers.html

[JM Stuff]

14 hours ago, Redwolf said:

Many moons ago I wrote this "TacOps for CMPlayers". Artillery is in the middle of the first page:

https://wavehh.dyndns.org/tacops4/tacops-for-cmplayers.html

Seem to be nice and pure complete tactic, but also austere graphics from the 80, but why not having a look on it ? Is this similar as Armoured game ?

Perhaps this can help to created another level to play CM on Operational level for exemple dont know ?

What do you think yourself about it ?

And do you have a link to buy it ?

Edited September 1 by JM Stuff

[Andrew Kulin]

35 minutes ago, JM Stuff said:

And do you have a link to buy it ?

I am not even sure if it was available anymore on the BFC Store, before the buyout by Matrix.  I saw that the gentleman who created the game did post a congratulations to BFC on the Announcement Thread (MajorH Tacops Developer).  His only post since September 2011 though, so probably not going to reach him via forum mail.

There is this link in his profile though:  http://www.tacops.us

 

[Redwolf]

1 hour ago, JM Stuff said:

Seem to be nice and pure complete tactic, but also austere graphics from the 80, but why not having a look on it ? Is this similar as Armoured game ?

Perhaps this can help to created another level to play CM on Operational level for exemple dont know ?

What do you think yourself about it ?

And do you have a link to buy it ?

I don't think you can buy it at this particular time.

I don't know Armoured? Got a link?

TacOps4 is still me favorite wargame, even before CM. It is just so efficient UI wise. You spend your time on thinking and very little on clicking. And it is deadly. Most games won't run to time. As mentioned I particularly like the artillery dialog.

The scale is only one step up from CM, I don't think it can serve as an operational layer.

[JM Stuff]

53 minutes ago, Redwolf said:

I don't think you can buy it at this particular time.

I don't know Armoured? Got a link?

>for sure you know it is Armoured Brigade !!

https://store.steampowered.com/app/1089840/Armored_Brigade/

TacOps4 is still me favorite wargame, even before CM. It is just so efficient UI wise. You spend your time on thinking and very little on clicking. And it is deadly. Most games won't run to time. As mentioned I particularly like the artillery dialog.

> now that I think about it, yes, I remember the time when BFC offered this game, it was the time with other games like "Balkan in fire" or something like that, CMSF1 had just come out and I was interested to have it, later I forgot about Tacops and almost everyone who was waiting for the first Shock force like me too, but I never bought this game.

The scale is only one step up from CM, I don't think it can serve as an operational layer.

>yes, seeing the details this game seems really interesting, maybe take a look at the (GOG site, if I remember correctly the name)  to find it.

 

[JM Stuff]

1 hour ago, Andrew Kulin said:

I am not even sure if it was available anymore on the BFC Store, before the buyout by Matrix.  I saw that the gentleman who created the game did post a congratulations to BFC on the Announcement Thread (MajorH Tacops Developer).  His only post since September 2011 though, so probably not going to reach him via forum mail.

There is this link in his profile though:  http://www.tacops.us

 

Thank you for your added infos yes 2011 is already far away,  and I guess this game will only exist by some collectors like our friend @Redwolf for exemple.

thanks to try to post the link but this one is  dead !!

Edited September 1 by JM Stuff

[Andrew Kulin]

Go to the TacOps forum.  There was a thread (one of the 2 or 3 more recent ones) that linked to a site where you may be able to download the game (if that site still exists of course).  But in that thread someone also made a comment about Windows 10 buggering the game up in some way (purchase of units for new game or something like that).  But game I think runs on Mac too

[JM Stuff]

11 minutes ago, Andrew Kulin said:

Go to the TacOps forum.  There was a thread (one of the 2 or 3 more recent ones) that linked to a site where you may be able to download the game (if that site still exists of course).  But in that thread someone also made a comment about Windows 10 buggering the game up in some way (purchase of units for new game or something like that).  But game I think runs on Mac too

Thanks Andrew, I will try to find this link, I was checking but there is a lot on this forum, but more easy... in my opinion,because it was a game of BFC only a BFC guys can give us the corrrect answer that we are searching about it isn t ?

so,... ding ding Elvis...I will try later to him...?

[PEB14]

@laurent 22

Salut Laurent,

I've moved your post here because I think that's where it belongs!

On 8/31/2024 at 11:31 PM, laurent 22 said:

Glad to read that CM is not changing its formula and continues to optimize its assets.

CM's strength is to offer us a one-minute cinema sequence of which we are the director. With the improvement of the engine, we have gone from imagination with playmobiles, to sound and visual immersion with CMx2. With Unity we will be in contemplation. I hope you will not get tired of remaking games on the 2nd GM, because I am waiting for them as a priority.

Even if CMx2 is still far from current standards, your 3D and 2D teams do an excellent job with the constraints of the engine. The visual aspect has been consistent since the beginning, their work is full of tricks bypassing the limits of the engine. It is often these small teams of developers bridled by constraints who are the most creative and competent. 

I have a good image of the company Slitherine/Matrix. I sometimes followed their "tea time" conference when they talked about CM. I had the opportunity to exchange with them during the Shock Force invitational tournament, and their technical support was responsive when I encountered a problem because of their servers. Only one criticism : visually, I don't like their website at all, I preferred the BF.C website. Slitherine/Matrix takes Steam as its model, but it works for Steam because the platform sells a very wide range of genres, while Slitherine specializes in story games. A user interface with a warmer color palette,  would be more in line with the universe of the games, but especially not these electric greens, rather olive green for example. For the pages presenting the DLC, they should use the logos that you had already created for each module. On the positive side, the illustrations for CM games are cool, especially those of FI, RT and FB.

My wish list for CMx3:

• Vehicle wrecks. A little more than the impact hole, and the lowered gun, especially when the vehicle is in a big hole hit by a bomb of several kilos. Without going as far as gore, I don't know how you envision the visual effect of the flamethrower on the infantry, but sometimes a little abstraction is useful, so don't change anything
• A better modeling of the soldier: the bent arms are too long. When the soldier runs, his elbows go down almost to the thighs, except the elbows are at the waist level.
• A little more ragdoll.
• A better animation for soldiers in motion with the "hunt" command.
• A better dispersion of soldiers in motion.
• Black soldiers for Buffalo Division.
• Special effects for shells falling in water or snow.
• Special effects for bullet impacts on the ground, on walls. Results of shots on the facades of buildings in real time. Windows breaking, for example.
• A special effect for fires. An improvement of the smoke special effect, put an end to the smoke columns.
• Traces of the passage of an armored vehicle in the snow, sand, muddy ground, fields and tall grass.
• Animation of walls, barriers, wooden objects, and trees crushed by a heavy tank.
• Sidewalks in cities, stairs. More abandoned civilian vehicles, trucks, trams, trains in stations. Emblematic buildings of Paris (Eiffel Tower, Notre Dame, the Louvre, quays) and Berlin (Reishtag, the Brandenburg Gate, Gendarmenmarkt square). More visual elements to represent the interior of factories, I am of course thinking of Stalingrad. Better modeling of cities destroyed by artillery. Women civilians.
• Dressing the interior of houses with a few objects, tables, wardrobes, beds.
• Real trenches and foxholes.
• Shots stopped by friendly vehicles. Thus, soldiers can protect themselves behind the wrecks of enemy vehicles.
• The animated sequence of a WWII tank firing should logically follow the steps: the turret turns its gun towards its target, the crew calculates the distances, aims, then fires. The animation sequence in CM reverses everything: the tank sees the target but doesn't turn the turret, despite everything the crew seems to calculate the target, aim at it without aligning the target with cannon, then as soon as the turret turns its cannon towards the target, the shot is almost instantaneous.
• A view a little closer to the ground to better appreciate the reliefs, and thus be closer to the soldiers, would be welcome. This is why it is necessary to remain attentive to the details of the 3D/2D model of the soldier, because the player becomes attached to him, experiencing a phenomenon specific to cinema and any story: identification with the character/hero. I really appreciate historical scenarios with the real names of the officers as in the last Battlepack of BN.

CM will become a must-have for a wider audience !

[PEB14]

On 8/31/2024 at 11:31 PM, laurent 22 said:

My wish list for CMx3:

• (...)
• Emblematic buildings of Paris (Eiffel Tower, Notre Dame, the Louvre, quays)
• (...)

Are you thinking of some 2e DB campaign?

Honestly, having the team developping models for ONE day of combat is a little bit... ambitious! Even though it would be cool to play a scenario with the Panther on the Place de la Concorde against the Sherman and tank destroyers of the RBFM on the Camps Elysées... But you need more buidlinds than just the Arc de Triomphe and the Obélisque to have it look nicely!

Anyway you can forget about 2e DB; as long as it's not possible to build one's own TOE you won't have a good representation of the RMT tactical, 5-squads's platoon structure, by example.

 

On 8/31/2024 at 11:31 PM, laurent 22 said:

My wish list for CMx3:

• (...)
• Dressing the interior of houses with a few objects, tables, wardrobes, beds.
• (...)

Honestly, I would prefer to have more realistic building interior's first (with inner walls and stair cases!). I'm tired of having my troops getting annihilated by troops firing from a building on the far-away side as soon as they enter a big city appartments' building...

 

I would add to your list:

- middle sized churches (presently there are small chapels and big city cathedrals, but the first are too small and the latter too big for 95% of the  churches that you can see in French villages and small towns...)

- classy buildings for manors and castles. Yesterday I assaulted the Brecourt Manor. It looked like a DDR governement building.

- ROUND towers. The world in CM2 is square. Round is life. Give us round towers for windmills, castles, dovecotes... There are round towers everywhere in countryside!

Edited September 2 by PEB14
More buildings!

[PEB14]

There's a game mode that would be cool for an Engine 5/CM3 game.

Right now, you know the full map even before one of your foot soldier entered it. What would be nice would be a game mode where you (at least the attacking side) need to scout for terrain and not only for the enemy. Before that moment, you would only know about terrain what one can see on the 2D map the leader has got: position of buildings (but neither their heigth nor the position of its windows and doors nor the type of building); position of hedges and walls but not their type (hedge, low or high bocage, low or high walls), nor the position of the gaps; the position of forests (but not wether they're passable by vehicles or not), etc. In particular, the nature of terrain (mud or rocky soil?) would remain unknown until you see it by yourself.

Visually, it's not easy to render though... (I'm thinking of ghosly trees and hedges, vaporous, B&W windowsless buildings, etc..)?

That would certainly add realism and completely change the game! In particular, combat in short LOS terrain like bocage would never be the same again...

[Centurian52]

One thing that it occurs to me that I'd really like for CM3 to have would be some sort of indicator in the main menu of the game that I've got a PBEM turn waiting to be played. I'm just dreadful about checking my personal email (it's not the email that anything urgent ever goes to anyway). So I'd really like some sort of in-game notification (like some form of highlighting or indicator on the PBEM menu item), preferably on the main menu to catch my attention before I start navigating to any of the single player content, to let me know that I have multiplayer obligations that I should probably fulfill before I start up another single player scenario.

[CarlXII]

I have mentioned before that i would like to see somewhat more flexible objectives in CM3 (as well as CM2 )..

Something like this is what i have in mind....3 examples below...

OBJECTIVE: hold village crossroad
TYPE: occupy
UNIT SPECIFIC: none
ACHIVED NOT LATER THAN: none
HOLD UNTIL: turn 60 (end)
MINIMUM POINT VALUE REQUIRED: 300 points (platoon sized formation)
MINIMUM ARMOUR VALUE REQUIRED: none
KILL UNIT: none
SPOT UNIT: none
POINTS REWARDED AT GAME END: 2000 points
POINTS REWARDED PER TURN: none

-------------------------------------

OBJECTIVE: capture hill 901
TYPE: occupy
UNIT SPECIFIC: U3 (2nd company, 1 battalion)
ACHIVED NOT LATER THAN: turn 20
HOLD UNTIL: turn 45 (end)
MINIMUM POINT VALUE REQUIRED: 500 points (reduced company)
MINIMUM ARMOUR VALUE REQUIRED: none
KILL UNIT: none
SPOT UNIT: none
POINTS REWARDED AT GAME END: 1000 points
POINTS REWARDED PER TURN: 50 points

-------------------------------------

OBJECTIVE: Kill Jagd Tiger
TYPE: kill
UNIT SPECIFIC: none
ACHIVED NOT LATER THAN: turn 45 (end)
HOLD UNTIL: none
MINIMUM POINT VALUE REQUIRED: none
MINIMUM ARMOUR VALUE REQUIRED: none
KILL UNIT: U8 ( Jagd Tiger)
SPOT UNIT: none
POINTS REWARDED AT GAME END: 500 points
POINTS REWARDED PER TURN: none
 

[laurent 22]

Salut @PEB14 , yes, I was thinking about the 2nd DB in Panam I remember a big scenario in CMx1 with the FFI fighting on Place de la Concorde, the Tuileries and Rue de Rivoli. This street would require modeling of the arcades. The obelisk would be a flavor object. The liberation of Paris could be a campaign like the capture of Cologne in the last BN Battle Pack.

BF.c had modeled the Arnhem bridge, designed the Dutch houses, why not make a big effort for Paris which is the capital of BN ? Berlin, the capital of RT and Rome the capital of FI, with the Vatican and the Coliseum in 3D, I'm afraid of getting banned from the forum by asking for this

I agree with you, the manors and small ruined castles dot the French countryside, cylindrical towers, modeled on mills, would also be welcome. These buildings would enhance the excellent Kandu/Wimo campaign maps. It's true that if we start listing the expectations about terrain and building modeling, we're not done :).

(My topic doesn't really belong in the wishes for engine 5 which only concerns the physical performances of the game - frame rate, lights, cache memory etc. There will be no new 3D models, new units, or new functions.) 

Edited September 8 by laurent 22

[PEB14]

2 hours ago, laurent 22 said:

Salut @PEB14 , yes, I was thinking about the 2nd DB in Panam I remember a big scenario in CMx1 with the FFI fighting on Place de la Concorde, the Tuileries and Rue de Rivoli. This street would require modeling of the arcades. The obelisk would be a flavor object. The liberation of Paris could be a campaign like the capture of Cologne in the last BN Battle Pack.

Indeed. I have done preliminary work on the matter: I've identified 27 battles that could provide enough material for missions, betweeen August 23rd and August 28th. This list should be shortened to build a 6-8 missions campaign, dedicated to one of the GTs (either GTL, GTD or GTV) that one could follow during the combats in the South of Paris, one scenario in Paris proper, and a couple more in the northern suburbs. The bibliography on the matter is fantastic… Unfortunately, CM2 doesn't allow to model French units correctly (in particular, the 2e DB infantry platoon structure is not the same as the US one). So for now the project is paused, as many others… Including two more campaigns involving the 2e DB, in Normandy and in Dompaire!

For any Paris project you will need some Haussmann-looking buildings with proper balconies. Nothing impossible to mod with the available tools, though!