Mark mines?

[weapon2010]

I ran a test using "mixed mines" where the engineers use the "mark mines" command and after a few turns the sign changes and you can safely pass your men slowly over the marker, how ever i tried to move a tank over it slowly and it blew up, how do you get vehicles to safely pass?

[FlemFire]

My understanding is that marking mines doesn't remove them -- it simply lets others know they are there. So while infantry might carefully step around them, a large piece of metal on wheels/tracks might not be so nimble as to ballerina its way through a 'the floor is lava' scenario. I think that mostly leaves you with the HE route or the "go around" solution. One thing I haven't tested is if it is possible to set off mines by doing a manual-target with infantry and having them throw grenades at them.

[MOS:96B2P]

8 hours ago, weapon2010 said:

I ran a test using "mixed mines" where the engineers use the "mark mines" command and after a few turns the sign changes and you can safely pass your men slowly over the marker, how ever i tried to move a tank over it slowly and it blew up, how do you get vehicles to safely pass?

Engineers can most reliably and safely locate unidentified minefields using the Slow command.  

Marking a minefield substantially reduces the chance of triggering a mine for infantry traversing the minefield.

Antitank minefields can be marked but there is no effect. Infantry can traverse them without risk and vehicles don't benefit from marking.

Minefields can be neutralized by heavy artillery (150mm+), if it scores a direct hit.

Minefields can be neutralized by a blast from a demo charge if there is a blastable obstacle (wire) in the action spot.

Anti-personnel mines have a cumulative effect on vehicle mobility. ie: Number of Action Spots a vehicle can generally cross in an AP Minefield before immobilization: Armor= 2 A/S, light Armor= 1 A/S, Transport= Destroyed.

Red sign with a skull and crossbones = Active non-marked minefield.

Off white sign (yellow in CMBS) with a skull and crossbones = A marked minefield. 

Green sign with a white X = Neutralized minefield (all mines detonated)

8 hours ago, Khalerick said:

 'the floor is lava' scenario.

" solution. One thing I haven't tested is if it is possible to set off mines by doing a manual-target with infantry and having them throw grenades at them.

+1 The floor is lava is a good way to think of it.  

I never tried with hand grenades but my understanding is minefields can be neutralized by heavy artillery (150mm+), if it scores a direct hit.

[SimpleSimon]

It'd be cool if engineer skill level affected things like the quality of mine removal but sadly the fact that mines are never truly 'removed' leaves them a bit overpowered as a game mechanic I feel. They should be used with great caution in a CM game. What isn't used enough I think is barbed wire obstacles. Those are more binary and oddly people only ever seem to use them in way that makes them worthless ie: 2-3 bound together in an open field where they restrict neither movement nor enemy fire.

They should be strung out in places like forests or low ground where the enemy might try to maneuver through out of sight of a defender's heavy weapons. There should be enough of them to seriously and actually impede attacker mobility. Scenario designers seem to use them in a way that frequently makes them ineffective. 

Edited January 4, 2021 by SimpleSimon

[Bulletpoint]

6 minutes ago, SimpleSimon said:

What isn't used enough I think is barbed wire obstacles. Those are more binary and oddly people only ever seem to use them in way that makes them worthless ie: 2-3 bound together in an open field where they restrict neither movement nor enemy fire.

 

A couple of reasons they are not used:

• They are expensive in points and you often need a lot of wire to make a meaningful obstacle.
• They often can't properly connect to terrain obstacles such as buildings and hedges (depends on angle etc), which means infantry can walk straight past the wire.
• The opponent will nearly always have tanks or other vehicles that can crush the wire.

Edited January 4, 2021 by Bulletpoint

[Sgt.Squarehead]

9 minutes ago, SimpleSimon said:

They should be strung out in places like forests or low ground where the enemy might try to maneuver through out of sight of a defender's heavy weapons. There should be enough of them to seriously and actually impede attacker mobility. Scenario designers seem to use them in a way that frequently makes them ineffective.

These obstacles are usually more creatively placed in scenarios.....It's a shame that it's not possible for a designer to build fortifications into QB maps for use by the defender, as I understand it any units alredy present are 'overwritten' when QB forces are selected.

[MOS:96B2P]

5 minutes ago, SimpleSimon said:

It'd be cool if engineer skill level affected things like the quality of mine removal but sadly the fact that mines are never truly 'removed'

I think experience effects the time to mark mines.  In some of the WW2 titles vehicles (M4 Sherman Crab etc.) can be used to breach an obstacle belt.  But yes, I wish all the titles, especially modern titles, had engineer breaching vehicles. 

13 minutes ago, SimpleSimon said:

What isn't used enough I think is barbed wire obstacles. 

They should be strung out in places like forests or low ground where the enemy might try to maneuver through out of sight of a defender's heavy weapons. There should be enough of them to seriously and actually impede attacker mobility. Scenario designers seem to use them in a way that frequently makes them ineffective. 

  +1  THIS! 

And include mines with them to make an obstacle belt.  Wire also blocks wheeled vehicle movement (many scout cars are wheeled).  Also mines and wire can be assigned to an AI group so the location of obstacle belts can change with the Ai plan.  In titles that don't have engineer breaching vehicles I like to leave a path open through the obstacle belt.  While the engineers can't remove mines they can locate the path through them.  This kind of simulates a breaching operation.  An entire Avenue of Approach can have one of these obstacle belts (the location of which can change based on the AI plan).  Then the player has a choice, do I breach or attempt a different AA that might lead to a fire sack.  Lots of interesting possibilities with wire / mines and AI groups. 

As @Bulletpoint mentioned using obstacle belts in a QB is probably not practical.  But they can definitely work in user made scenarios where the ends of the obstacle belts are tied into no-go terrain.  I've not published any scenarios with obstacle belts but I have a few that I'm experimenting around with.  IMO they have a lot of interesting potential for scenarios.     

[chuckdyke]

They have Abrams for mine clearing in RL. Talking about mines I wish I could equip troops with Claymores. Just to get even, knock on a door and run away after leaving a little present behind. 

[weapon2010]

so with a mixed mine or anti-vehicle in the middle of a road on an impassable forrest, there is no option , you must run over it and take your chances

[MOS:96B2P]

2 minutes ago, weapon2010 said:

so with a mixed mine or anti-vehicle in the middle of a road on an impassable forrest, there is no option , you must run over it and take your chances

If you had one of these ...........   If you don't have a breach vehicle (and you are lucky enough to know the mine is present) you could:

Mark and advance with infantry, leaving the vehicles.

Have infantry move around it through the forest, leaving the vehicles. (heavy forest is not impassable to infantry)

Use a different avenue of advance to get the vehicles through.

Attempt to hit it with 150mm or greater.  (If you have any.  Might not be a good use for the arty anyways)

Ask for a volunteer to drive over it.  (If its only one tile deep and holding up a company of tanks it might be worth it) 

It does present an interesting tactical problem / dilemma.  

 

[Sgt.Squarehead]

We need mine rollers & ploughs in ALL the CM titles. 

God only knows why we don't have them already TBH, I'd be more than happy to spend a lot more money on CM if there were more products to buy.....Vehicle Packs, Campaign Packs, Uncon Upgrades, I'll take 'em all, I'll happly pay upfront too (and I very much doubt I am alone in this).

 

[MikeyD]

Mines are one of those weapons that has the potential to bring a scenario to a dead halt. There's a reason why people rarely string mine belts across a scenario map or (other examples) plaster the far end of a map with artillery rockets at startup, or knock down the only bridge over a river with battleship artillery. Because the result is the scenario's over before the fun starts.

[SimpleSimon]

Yeah Mikey, because you can't really get rid of them, which makes them really "over-powered" in a game mechanics sense. I lean toward barbed wire not only because it was more common but also because it abstracts a "removable" minefield. As for QB balancing I can't say. I always use the scenario editor. 

One place I tend to find the game's mines more appropriate is near map edges, which not only discourages a bit of the edge running stuff but also adds a bit of narrative context by implying that your attack is happening where it is because the sectors to its side are impassable "here's why". 

Edited January 4, 2021 by SimpleSimon

[Erwin]

4 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

your attack is happening where it is because the sectors to its side are impassable "here's why". 

I like that reasoning...

[Sgt.Squarehead]

7 hours ago, MikeyD said:

Because the result is the scenario's over before the fun starts.

That somewhat depends on how the scenario is scripted & scored.....I like scenarios that start with a bang (or several), but I surely don't penalise the player for casualties inflicted by what is by & large just 'special effects'.

[Freyberg]

12 hours ago, SimpleSimon said:

They should be strung out in places like forests or low ground where the enemy might try to maneuver through out of sight of a defender's heavy weapons.

That's exactly where the AI places barbed wire in QBs.

[chuckdyke]

The purpose of a minefield is to create a chokepoint (chokepoints) to channel the enemy's forces to a killing area of your choice. You don't want to do that, scout for at least three approach routes or conduct a breaching operation through the minefield. It may be cheaper than going through a killing area full of TRP's you don't know off. "Hi Aussie (a Yank once called) I stepped on one of your mines." Is that right mate be with you in a second!" 15 minutes later he walked over got a pin out of his pocket dug under the boot and put the pin back in the 'Jumping Jack'. Then the fight started for some reason.