Hungarian bazooka-Panzerschreck hybrid

[John Kettler]

What I thought were Panzerschrecks in a Hungarian newsreel turn out to be homegrown and weird, for the weapons shown are bizarre meldings of elements from the bazooka and Panzerschreck. The name is head-breaking, never mind writing it properly for English speakers.
 

Regards,

John Kettler

[Freyberg]

Range 600m...?

Impressive if true.

[Erwin]

Max range could be 600m - but "effective range"...?

[John Kettler]

Believe Ian Hogg listed PIAT range as something around 700 yards/640 meters, but that's not for shooting tanks. That's for hitting a barn with HE or lofting an illumination projectile. PIAT had a bunch of different projectiles by war's end, I believe. Would imagine the bazooka was somewhere in such range, too, but as I've shown, Patton found accuracy to be so poor he forbade shooting it against tanks at more than 40 yards/36.6 meters. I don't have the ballistic data for 44M KPV, the bazooka or the Panzerschreck, so can't readily compare them. Fortunately, further research yielded some answers. It so happens the German Army's weapon testers (WaPrufAmt) got hold of the 44M KPV and experimented with it, concluding it was inferior to the Panzerscreck, with substantially lower penetration. The figure listed was 100 mm, but no angle was listed. I believe the Germans used a 30 degree from vertical angle for their DF AT tests, but that memory may not be accurate. What's certain is the figure listed was 100 mm and the effective range was 150 meters. Have already shown the Panzerschreck, operated by someone good with it, could hit tank after tank at 200 meters. Since penetration for HEAT is directly affected by liner cone diameter, obviously what  fits in an 88 mm tube, holding tech used constant, is going to out perform a 60 mm projectile. THis is precisely why the RPG-7 has oversized HEAT projectiles to overcome the far poorer penetration possible via what would fit inside the launch tube. Also of note is that the Hungarian AT rocket, because of lower velocity than the Panzerschreck,  had a higher trajectory, which complicated range estimation some but also resulted in better angle of strike vs sloped armor. If I can find my CMBB Strategy Guide (note conditional) I'll see whether BFC has it in the weapon lists there.

https://forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?f=71&t=81303

Apparently, the CMBB Strategy Guide is still packed up after I had to clear out one of the rooms here, but a rare book (published briefly by the now defunct Champlin Air Museum) called Trophies of the Red Army in the Great Patriotic War, Volume I and authored by the Senior Curator of one of the Red Army's major museums, listed effective range as 200 meters and 1943-1944 as the period of introduction into service. The facility was the Red Army central study point for captured weapons everywhere the Red Army fought. Sadly, we'll probably never see the full set of books (was intended to be a series) published. Count myself extremely fortunate to have Volume I. 

http://www.aberdeenbookstore.com/books/general-world-war-2/the-trophies-of-the-red-army

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by John Kettler

[Ts4EVER]

They also had this:

[Erwin]

I can't help wondering about the poor bastid who first tested it b4 they realized they needed the blast shield.   

[DerKommissar]

Aww... I want Hungarians in CM:RT so bad, they have a lot of funky toys.

[Ts4EVER]

Ok, once again with a working link:

 

Edited March 17, 2020 by Ts4EVER

[benpark]

3 hours ago, DerKommissar said:

Aww... I want Hungarians in CM:RT so bad, they have a lot of funky toys.

Agreed. There are a few combat-effective Hungarian units to make a campaign around as well.

[John Kettler]

TS4EVER,

That one's got pics, a good description and tabular data in my book on trophy weapons. It appears the Russians didn't know the actual designation and for resons unknown dubbed it (or learned) it was called) "the Salashi needle". Here's a good article on Hungary's rocket programs, including the 44M KPV (not about to try to write the actual name) and the one you posted.
https://hungarianweaponryww2.wixsite.com/hungarianmilitaryww2/single-post/2018/01/07/PartX-Anti-tankinfantry-Rockets
It's unclear form the text in my book (weapon covered pp. 75-78) whether each projectile has a precursor charge and a main charge in one (term used was "double cumulative") in order to first defeat skirt armor, after which the main charge would defeat the primary armor (serious ordnance engineering to do that) or whether what was really going on was that what really was happening was a "ripple two" of both projectiles launched in rapid succession such that one cleared out enough of the skirt armor (if present) to allow a clean hit on the AFV proper by the other.

Regards,

John Kettler

[bardosy]

On 3/18/2020 at 1:58 AM, John Kettler said:

TS4EVER,

That one's got pics, a good description and tabular data in my book on trophy weapons. It appears the Russians didn't know the actual designation and for resons unknown dubbed it (or learned) it was called) "the Salashi needle". Here's a good article on Hungary's rocket programs, including the 44M KPV (not about to try to write the actual name) and the one you posted.
https://hungarianweaponryww2.wixsite.com/hungarianmilitaryww2/single-post/2018/01/07/PartX-Anti-tankinfantry-Rockets
It's unclear form the text in my book (weapon covered pp. 75-78) whether each projectile has a precursor charge and a main charge in one (term used was "double cumulative") in order to first defeat skirt armor, after which the main charge would defeat the primary armor (serious ordnance engineering to do that) or whether what was really going on was that what really was happening was a "ripple two" of both projectiles launched in rapid succession such that one cleared out enough of the skirt armor (if present) to allow a clean hit on the AFV proper by the other.

Regards,

John Kettler

 

Actually, it's name is "Szálasi röppentyű" and röppentyű is more like "slingshot" than needle. Szálasi was the hungarian Hitler. And in that time there was a lot of other name eg: "Stalin organ" or "Hitler bacon"... These names was popular, so I guess Szálasi röppentyű was not an official name, just a nickname.

Most of the troops never use it, they usually use the German Panzerfaust. Even the most elite paratrooper units use Panzerfaust only.

 

 

[Bufo]

Interestingly enough the newsreel says in that video that they are getting trained to use the panzerschreck. No mention of a home-made AT device.

[John Kettler]

bardosy,
 

Huge thanks for this information, which I almost certainly wouldn't have ever gotten otherwise. 

Regards,
 

John Kettler

[Sgt.Squarehead]

On 3/17/2020 at 6:21 PM, DerKommissar said:

Aww... I want Hungarians in CM:RT so bad, they have a lot of funky toys.

Amen to that:

Bring me my Zrinyi!