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you've been down this road before. I know folks want an update from Steve about the patch but in all likelihood comments like yours will draw his attention sooner.  He has a low tolerance for Russian

Russia definitely has ulterior motives in Ukraine. The Donbass has been so extensive that rebuilding/integrating it into Russia would be a huge economic drain on Russia. If they really wanted to "prot

16th March SMM OSCE UAV spotted Russian EW systems R-330Zh ("Zhytel") and newest "Tirada-2", which only in this year will go into service, but already succsessfully taken from "coal mine" on Donbas.

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2 hours ago, John Kettler said:

The fighting in the area under minute discussion by Haiduk et al. has made the news. Has a nice shot of what we called an ACRV during the Cold War.

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ukraine-fighting-surges-spite-truce-160539184.html

Regards, 

John Kettler

1V14/15 ACRV now is using mostly as armored carrier for artillery recon groups, but not by own direct purpose. Almost all its equipment now substituted by PDAs, merged in network and portable laser range finder. Only PAB-2 artillery compass from old equipment still in use. So, on battlefieild spotters are moving by foot or on armor of that unit, which their batery supports. Sometime they are using specially equipped Humvees or civil jeeps.   

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In this night enemy have launched 160 "Grad" rockets on Avdiivka. Also artillery are shelling the city. There are reports about houses destructions and damages, but number of victims still unclear. Avdiivka is mostly built up by individual houses. Military-civil administration of Donetsk region is preparing to evacuation of civilians - in first order about 8000 from southern part of city. Now in Avdiivla still about 25000 of population. 

On video enemy Grad firing on Avdiivka direction from residental area of Donetsk. Of course, we can't fire back.

And at last became knowingly where our troops have seized enemy positions. There are "Almaz" and "Almaz-2" some SW from "promka"

igersJAgSYg.jpg

Edited by Haiduk
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Haiduk,

Given that volume of fire, am frankly surprised there's much left of the place, considering a single Grad will wreck a house as a habitation. Never mind the artillery. Please supply pics of Andivka when you have them.

If Perdition exists, I believe there should be a special place for those who deliberately conduct military operations from civilian areas in order to attract counterfire for propaganda exploitation from the resultant civilians casualties or to be able to operate with impunity, especially when hitting not the military defenses but the town or city. This has driven me nuts since the days in which the North Vietnamese put AAA on the roofs of hospitals and blazed away. Naturally, when the US got tired of losing planes to these guns in de facto sanctuary, the guns were attacked. "American air pirates bomb poor civilians in hospitals!" was the anguished cry to the largely clueless world. The perverse stunt the video showed is precisely the kind of thing Excalibur was designed to address surgically. Failing that, I think it would be lovely if those responsible for causing this and things like it to mysteriously disappear, only to reappear before the  International Court of Justice and charged with war crimes. A man can dream, right? That's my nice solution. The ACRV was a high priority target during the Cold War. Find one, and you knew wiping out the thing would really smart. 

Regards,

John Kettler

 

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4 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

There is a subtle point you are missing.  I am not sympathizing with the Kiev side because it is Kiev and the other side is Russia.  If Kiev was waging a war of aggression against Russia, and lying about it, then I would sympathize with Russia.  Any under no circumstances do I distort facts to fit my sympathies.  If Ukraine screws up or does something that is illegal, I'm perfectly happy to accept it if the evidence is there.  I have no loyalty to Ukraine that would override my personal integrity about seeking truth.

You are mistaken.  I think most of the people reading this thread would welcome a full Ukrainian offensive to throw the Russian invaders out of its territory and make Russia think twice about invading another weaker neighbor in the future.  On the other hand, there is very good reason for the Russian media to make it seem like Ukraine is in violation of Minsk and can't be trusted.  The problem you don't seem to understand is nobody outside of Russia (except right wing extremists) believe a word Russia says because it's history of lying is so obvious and so extensive.  So if Russia says something and Ukraine says the opposite, the sensible thing to do is believe Ukraine because it's more likely true.  However, that does not make it so.  If Russia really cares about being proven correct it could allow OSCE to fully monitor its side, it could allow journalists free access, and it could allow UN Peace Keepers to take over to ensure the cease fire holds.

Wow.  I suppose if you discount reality your point might be valid in an alternate universe.  Here in the world the rest of us live in Minsk 2 was signed and in effect but the Russian offensive increased in the days after signature.  The assault included the use of regular Russian Federation forces which itself is a violation of Minsk 1, Minsk 2, and international law generally.  If Russia had followed the terms of either Minsk 1 or Minsk 2 then there would be Ukrainian forces in Debaltseve now.  Of course if Russia lived up to its agreements it would never have invaded Ukraine in the first place.

No matter how it is viewed by you the facts are very clear to those of us who are not biased by nationalism and domestic propaganda.

Steve

I didn't say that you sympathize the Kiev side because it is Kiev. (I think that Kiev started agression against Donbas people, when unlegal maidan authoriry prohibited Donbas activists to protest and moved army and naz battalions to the East, but I won't convince you)

Yes! I say exactly this. People here will welcome Ukrainian offence anyway. No need to give "corrected" info about "separatists who attack first". We all know, that VSU are conducting small scale attacks during last year. Now another small scale offence went bad, and Ukrainian side tell stories about Russian agression.

Debaltsevo had been encircled when Minsk-2 was signed! You can check it, Logvinovo was liberated by DNR forces before, VSU escaped from claudron by field roads. Poroshenco didn't want to admit the fact of encirclment and to reach an agreement about leaving Debaltsevo. So VSU had do break through and take losses.

"nationalism and domestic propaganda"

Very nice, but if you think that DNR theme is important in "Russian propaganda", i.e. Russian TV, you are wrong. Only escalation of the last few days got in TV news. Before that - full silence about Svetlodark and other engagements. And why nationalism?

 

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13 hours ago, Haiduk said:

Finally, screen of post of "Ol'khon" - well known in DNR Russian volunteer, commandr of recon unit in Debaltsevo operation in 2015. Special for DMS in order to solve a question "who attacked first". Though for me is not important. If an enemy invade, he must be expelled out in any ways. 

 

1) He is in Moscow

2) Message posted yesterday, 14:40. Far after initial engagement.

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Always sounds funny when somebody calls an occupation of the territory of another country and murder of its people - "liberation".

I wonder if russians in this thread or across the internet even understand how much hatred for themselves they plant into ukrainians for centuries to come by being so hypocritical - or even care

Edited by kraze
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@Haiduk those blue arrows in your pic - are they just to show/point to the circle,  or were they avenues of attack? 

Guys,  time to pull back a bit from the HE SAID -  SHE SAID. 

Unless you have 1) primary sources,  such as Haiduk does,  or 2) Researched articles,  multiples of,  then you are all just yelling at each other and this thread will quickly get locked (as it should).

Also,  rehashing the right/wrong about PREVIOUS events such as 2-3 year old battles is pointless and again,  contrary to this thread.

And frankly, it's boring as f#ck at this point. 

This thread is about Current events, happening now

@DMS , how about you provide direct sourcing of DNR reports? Don't spam please,  but I'll be happy to read. Let's see some written support of your POV about Avdiika!  

Just,  guys, please shut down the YOU'RE THE INVADER NO YOU ARE. Waste of everyone's time. 

Stay on point. 

Edited by kinophile
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On 30.01.2017 at 5:51 AM, Battlefront.com said:

Wrong.  I sympathize with what is most likely true.  I sympathize with the party that is the victim of foreign aggression.  I sympathize with the people that are unnecessarily dying for another country's benefit.  It is coincidental that point of view happens to coincide with that of Ukraine's point of view.

Of course, spending 5bln USD to finance the removal of democratically elected pro-russian president has nothing to do with it. Conducting regime change so Russia can be further isolated and dislodged from its most strategically important base on Crimea?. Ukraine's point of view? You mean that 17% support Poroshenko has or armed irregulars that roam the country freely? You know that pro-russian party is again third force in parliament? Please Haiduk, correct me if I am wrong, I did't see latest polls. Last time I checked Poroshenko was below Yanukovitch's all time lowest result.

So for whose benefit they are dying? Corruption is rampart. Over milion Ukrainians migrated to Russia, over two million to Poland, 60% of population lives below poverty line and its getting worse and worse. People in Ukraine hope it is eventually going to be better but it's not. Ukraine will never join EU (if EU is still there) because noone -save Poland, Germany and Baltic states - really wants them. Ukraine will not join NATO - not before the 3rd world war at least. EU made the trade deal with Ukraine, but it is killing ukrainian agriculture with dramatically low quotas.

Ukraine needs peace and BIG amount of economic help. But not only they are not getting enough, they spend it on war. War they can't finish without approval from Washington. How long will it take before Ukrainians realize they have been used and fed with false promises? That the debts have to be repaid?  

From military point of view this thread is interesting, but going a level above I have a feeling its straight from McCain's -or other madman's -sick war fantasies.

 

2 hours ago, kraze said:

Always sounds funny when somebody calls an occupation of the territory of another country and murder of its people - "liberation".

I wonder if russians in this thread or across the internet even understand how much hatred for themselves they plant into ukrainians for centuries to come by being so hypocritical - or even care

Surely, whole transatlantic community must feel very wrong about stealing most iconic and historical part of Serbia and creating an albanian enclave there. And how Iraqi people love their 'liberation'.You would be surprised how many Ukrainians would like peace and reconciliation with Russia. On the other hand I have no doubt USA is single most hated country in the world.

Hypocrisy?

Let me toss a few examples of hypocrisy.

- Bush and Blair engineering Iraqi WMD plot to invade souvereign country
- British crying against Crimea annexation but reluctant to release Gibraltar.
- British pretending there is no oppresive regime in Bahrain because they are permited a naval base there.
- US calling syrian jihadists (those willing to cooperate) 'moderates'
- US having as military allies two biggest terrorists sponsors (Saudi Arabia and Qatar) but invading Iraq.
- McCain calling Putin "war criminal".
- Accusing Iran but having no will to control Israel's nuclear potential
- supporting Saudi genocide in Yemen
- accusing Russia of war crimes (knowing how irregular enemies use public faciliies for cover and propaganda) despite producing large collateral damage themselves (USA)

- telling own public opinnion that Crimea's russian population did't want to join Russia (ridiculous as it sounds)

 

Want more? You see the pattern?

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Ashez
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1 hour ago, Ashez said:

Want more? You see the pattern?

Nope, you've clearly shown that you are a typical "whataboutism" Russian propagandist.  The pattern I see is Russia invading it's neighbors and taking their territory, while at the same time suppressing people's freedoms and impoverishing them through state sponsored theft.  Ukraine is trying to break away from this, but Russia is making it as hard as possible for the Ukrainian people.  The deaths and destruction is 100% the fault of the Russian government because the Russian government is the only one directly responsible for this war.  There is no amount of distraction, distortion, or lying about what is going on that will convince me otherwise.  So do not bother.

Steve

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5 hours ago, DMS said:

I didn't say that you sympathize the Kiev side because it is Kiev. (I think that Kiev started agression against Donbas people, when unlegal maidan authoriry prohibited Donbas activists to protest and moved army and naz battalions to the East, but I won't convince you)

Of course you won't convince me because I'm not ill informed and/or stupid.  You can't convince me the world is flat either.  This is a Russian war of aggression by its own choice. 

5 hours ago, DMS said:

Yes! I say exactly this. People here will welcome Ukrainian offence anyway. No need to give "corrected" info about "separatists who attack first". We all know, that VSU are conducting small scale attacks during last year. Now another small scale offence went bad, and Ukrainian side tell stories about Russian agression.

Last battle we talked about you made claims that it went badly for Ukraine, but it did not.  You also did not establish that Ukraine attacked first with anything even coming close to verifiable evidence.  Seems you are repeating this mistake again?

5 hours ago, DMS said:

Debaltsevo had been encircled when Minsk-2 was signed! You can check it, Logvinovo was liberated by DNR forces before, VSU escaped from claudron by field roads. Poroshenco didn't want to admit the fact of encirclment and to reach an agreement about leaving Debaltsevo. So VSU had do break through and take losses.

This has nothing to do with anything.  Minsk 1 and Minsk 2 assigned Debaltseve to Ukrainian control.  Russia and it's puppet forces violated Minsk 1 by taking territory around Debaltseve and trying to retake the city.  The Russian sponsored offensive was enough that Minsk 1 was declared dead and Minsk 2 was negotiated.  Debaltseve was once again assigned to Ukraine's side of the frontline and once again the Russian government signed while at the same time conducting an offensive to take it.  The fighting continued into the week following Russia's signature and involved regular Russian Federation Armed Forces as part of the offensive (which itself is a violation of Minsk 2 and international law).  You can dance around this all you want, but you make yourself look foolish.

5 hours ago, DMS said:

"nationalism and domestic propaganda"

Very nice, but if you think that DNR theme is important in "Russian propaganda", i.e. Russian TV, you are wrong. Only escalation of the last few days got in TV news. Before that - full silence about Svetlodark and other engagements. And why nationalism?

I do understand that the Russian government has been de-emphasizing the war in Ukraine on domestic news sources.  This is the advantage of controlling the media... if Russia wants people to see something, it shows it to them any way it likes.  If Russia doesn't want people to see something, it doesn't show it to them.  The DPR/LPR "news" sources are funded and controlled by the Russian government as well.

"Nationalism" refers to the Russian government's argument that this is a war against the Russian people of eastern Ukraine and that Russians should support it because it.  The initial forces fighting in Ukraine, first as "protestors" and then as "separatists", came from Russian nationalist and fascist organizations.  Leaders like Girkin and Gubarev are from these movements.  This is extremely well documented and anybody paying any serious attention to this war should not need an explanation of this.

Steve

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Just now, Battlefront.com said:

Of course you won't convince me because I'm not ill informed and/or stupid.  You can't convince me the world is flat either.  This is a Russian war of aggression by its own choice. 

Last battle we talked about you made claims that it went badly for Ukraine, but it did not.  You also did not establish that Ukraine attacked first with anything even coming close to verifiable evidence.  Seems you are repeating this mistake again?

This has nothing to do with anything.  Minsk 1 and Minsk 2 assigned Debaltseve to Ukrainian control.  Russia and it's puppet forces violated Minsk 1 by taking territory around Debaltseve and trying to retake the city.  The Russian sponsored offensive was enough that Minsk 1 was declared dead and Minsk 2 was negotiated.  Debaltseve was once again assigned to Ukraine's side of the frontline and once again the Russian government signed while at the same time conducting an offensive to take it.  The fighting continued into the week following Russia's signature and involved regular Russian Federation Armed Forces as part of the offensive (which itself is a violation of Minsk 2 and international law).  You can dance around this all you want, but you make yourself look foolish.

I do understand that the Russian government has been de-emphasizing the war in Ukraine on domestic news sources.  This is the advantage of controlling the media... if Russia wants people to see something, it shows it to them any way it likes.  If Russia doesn't want people to see something, it doesn't show it to them.  The DPR/LPR "news" sources are funded and controlled by the Russian government as well.

"Nationalism" refers to the Russian government's argument that this is a war against the Russian people of eastern Ukraine and that Russians should support it because it.  The initial forces fighting in Ukraine, first as "protestors" and then as "separatists", came from Russian nationalist and fascist organizations.  Leaders like Girkin and Gubarev are from these movements.  This is extremely well documented and anybody paying any serious attention to this war should not need an explanation of this.

Steve

Logvinovo was taken _before_ Minsk-2 and could not be assigned to Ukraninan control. Without Logvinovo VSU couldn't hold Debaltsevo. Logvinovo was hardly attacked all the time, after Minsk-2 was signed too.

Well, It is a long discussion, I speak Engish bad and in any case my arguments must be known to you and you consider them false. As kinophile suggests, let's focus on current events.

"Last battle we talked about you made claims that it went badly for Ukraine, but it did not.  You also did not establish that Ukraine attacked first with anything even coming close to verifiable evidence.  Seems you are repeating this mistake again?"

Haiduk and Ukrainian meda tell us about new Ukrainian succesfull tactik of small attacks, "ползучее наступление", "retaking land meter by meter". We discuss that small attacks for months. Ukrainian media told about "another succesfull" offenses few days ago. And now we must believe that this time separatists surely attacked first! "Повзучий наступ укропов", 29.01.17 TSN News: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VREUDG7208k

No, nationalists never was the main force of resistance. All that Ukrainian progaganda got - few (really few, <10) photos of real Russian nazis, who took part in war. And most of them allready left. Unlike Ukrainian nazis, who are celebrated at goverment level. Bandera, Shuhevish and their modern followers. What's about Girkin-Strelkov, I am not his fan - but he is not a nationalist, he is monarchist.

Edited by DMS
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2 hours ago, DMS said:

Logvinovo was taken _before_ Minsk-2 and could not be assigned to Ukraninan control. Without Logvinovo VSU couldn't hold Debaltsevo. Logvinovo was hardly attacked all the time, after Minsk-2 was signed too.

Logvinovo was taken by Russian forces in violation of Minsk 1.  And if the Russian forces stopped attacking, Debaltseve could have been held indefinitely as there would be no shelling of the road into it.  Regardless, Russia signed and guaranteed that Debaltseve would be under Ukrainian control.  There was nothing in Minsk 2 that made the Russian offensive AFTER SIGNATURE legal.  If Russia wanted to make a case for Debaltseve changing hands the time to have done that was during the negotiations for Minsk 2, not on the battlefield after.  Especially with Russian Federation forces leading the attack, which was also against Minsk 1, Minsk 2, and international law.

You can dance around this issue as much as you like, but the facts are very straight forward.  Russia is an aggressor and does not honor its legal commitments. 

2 hours ago, DMS said:

Well, It is a long discussion, I speak Engish bad and in any case my arguments must be known to you and you consider them false. As kinophile suggests, let's focus on current events.

"Last battle we talked about you made claims that it went badly for Ukraine, but it did not.  You also did not establish that Ukraine attacked first with anything even coming close to verifiable evidence.  Seems you are repeating this mistake again?"

Haiduk and Ukrainian meda tell us about new Ukrainian succesfull tactik of small attacks, "ползучее наступление", "retaking land meter by meter". We discuss that small attacks for months. Ukrainian media told about "another succesfull" offenses few days ago. And now we must believe that this time separatists surely attacked first! "Повзучий наступ укропов", 29.01.17 TSN News: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VREUDG7208k

Ukraine took positions, Russian backed forces lost positions.  Ukraine says that the Russian side started the attacks, the Russian side says Ukraine started it.  I have not seen definitive information from either side that makes me 100% sure what happened.  But as I've said, I don't really care because Russia has no interest in implementing Minsk 2 just like it wasn't interested in implementing Minsk 1 just like it wasn't interested in letting Ukraine determine it's own fate after Yanukovych fled to the protection of Russia.

2 hours ago, DMS said:

No, nationalists never was the main force of resistance.

Of course it was.  At the very beginning it was almost exclusively Russian citizens in leadership positions and most of the armed men were also Russians.  The reasons for their involvement are, of course, not exactly the same from person to person.

2 hours ago, DMS said:

All that Ukrainian progaganda got - few (really few, <10) photos of real Russian nazis, who took part in war.

Whether the people fighting for Russian policy in Ukraine were Fascists, Socialists, Monarchists, Mercenaries, Adventurists, Profiteers, or Russian government agents (FSB, GRU, Military) is not important.  The important fact is they were there in support of Russia's foreign policy goals, not Ukraine's.

2 hours ago, DMS said:

And most of them allready left.

Yes, many have left as Cargo 200 and others have been assassinated by the Russian government or its proxy forces (including illegal mercenaries, such as Wagner).  But there are still many Russians in Ukraine fighting for Russian government interests.

2 hours ago, DMS said:

 

Unlike Ukrainian nazis, who are celebrated at goverment level. Bandera, Shuhevish and their modern followers. What's about Girkin-Strelkov, I am not his fan - but he is not a nationalist, he is monarchist.

This is what we call "splitting hairs".  Nationalist is a broad term. 

Steve

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Just now, Battlefront.com said:

Debaltseve could have been held indefinitely as there would be no shelling of the road into it

Road goes through Logvinovo. And field roads were not enough to supply such big combat group. Militias suggested VSU to drop heavy weapons and exit safely, but noone trusted other side.

Just now, Battlefront.com said:

Ukraine took positions, Russian backed forces lost positions.  Ukraine says that the Russian side started the attacks, the Russian side says Ukraine started it.  I have not seen definitive information from either side that makes me 100% sure what happened.  But as I've said, I don't really care because Russia has no interest in implementing Minsk 2 just like it wasn't interested in implementing Minsk 1 just like it wasn't interested in letting Ukraine determine it's own fate after Yanukovych fled to the protection of Russia.

Kiev authorities won't follow Minsk either, as they would be overthrown by more radical forces. They constantly tell about retaking "Ukrainian land" by force, not peacefully, with constitution reforms, amnesty, e.t.c.. Russian side may wait as long as needed, while Ukrainians have economical and polititacl problems. So war won't stop soon.

Just now, Battlefront.com said:

This is what we call "splitting hairs".  Nationalist is a broad term. 

I just wanted to note that nationalists never were in majority. Most of soldiers are usual apolitical people, mainly pro-soviet. Radicals of all sorts don't like to sit in trenches for months.

By the way, I found nice operative map from mentioned above Strelkov-Girkin: map He writes that losses are several dozens from both sides. Scale of engagements is equal to Debaltsevo.

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1. I have renewed video of Grad salvos from Donetsk residental areas.

2. This topic was created by Kinophile, I think, only with purpose to know more about features of warfare of Ukrainian side for its reflection in CMBS scenarios. Not for political discussions. So, I will ignore any politic posts and lament about "crucified boys", "nazis battalions, exterminating women, oldsters and children", "cookies of Nuland on Maidan" and other marasmus. 

3. Back to frontline.

Update for 30.01

Detachment of 79th air-assault brigade (I think, company-size) have arrived on "promka". For that day we have 2 KIA (1 of 72nd brigade, 1 of 79th air-assault) and 20 WIA there. Intelligence reports about 10 KIA and 25 WIA from enemy side.

31.01

@John KettlerFortunately, enemy MLRS crews have bad training or they have an order just make panic in Avdiivka - most of Grad rockets hit wastelands sout-west and south-east from the city, though several rockets hit old Avdiivka part, damaged several individual houses (no direct hits) and also damaged an uninhabited building on territory of city hospital in south-west part. Also territory of hospital was shelled by 2B9 mortar. Three shells have impacted in the hospital's yard. Last cassete of Grad hit northern wasteland bihind of Avdiivka coko-chemical plant, but one rocket hit multi-storey building. Reportedly all of these impzcts have caused to several people were wounded. There is no electricity and very bad cell/CDMA communication level in Avdiivka now, so almost no any photos from local twiter users. 

Enemy also threw reinforcement in the battle - a company of assault "Somali" battalion. About 8-00 of morning enemy have requested a truce, but used in for regrouping and approx in 9-00 troopers of "Somali" have attacked our positions. During the hour+ fighting, enemy lost 2 KIA (among them company commander "Consul") and retreated. Some later enemy D-30 howitzers hit with friendly fire own position on market "Hospodar" near Yasynuvata fork.

In 10-30 Russian side as if have sent guarantee letter that DNR forces will cease fire to 17-00 in order to repair teams can start works on electricity network. But separs were continuing fire, only in 12-00 a truce took effect. But it was continuing only a hour. Since 13-00 enemy throug each 30-50 minutes was launching per 10 "Grad" rockets from Donetsk and Makiivka in direction of Avdiivka. Because of this repar works wasn't conducted in full volume.

Our artillery in the morning also shelled enemy positions and rarely fired on Spartak and Putilovka groove area in northern outskirt of Donetsk. And yes, some shells also hit in residental areas. Looks like during such impact was slightly wounded "Givi" - commander of "Somali" battalion. During this two days our troops also have crossed E50 hightway and approached to Spartak- norther gate of Donetsk. Reportedly enemy fortifications on Yasynuvata fork are badly damaged by artillery and enemy troops have moved under estacade. Also enemy placed tank company in Spartak  - tanks are shelling Butivka mine and Opytne. Also reportedly tank company have arrived in Yasynuvata.

On the map current positions of sides:

I translating some slavic writings - "промзона" - Avdiivka industrial zone also known as "promka", "ДФС" - Donetsk water filtering station, "OП" - strongpoint, OП "Алмаз" - strongpoint "Almaz", "ЯБП" - "Yasynuvata checkpoint" - heavy fortified position

@kinophile this is just arrows, for why its so much need ask at author )

C3hLOyPW8AAsGUJ.jpg

4. Next hot point of this days - Mariupol sector. Enemy is intensively shelling Shyrokyne-Lebedynske area. Our marines were trying to capture height 73 in order to come in Kominternove, but both probes were repelled by enemy. Reportedly we have several wounded and one damaged light armor (enemy say about 27 KIA, but this is pure delirium - all UAnet would know about such losses during hour after this %) ) 

On the map with red circle marked height 37 ("Derzkaya", eng."daring"). Kominternove (after liberation will be name Pikuzy) situates in 3 km to the north from this height.

 C3fv8lrWAAEcwxx.jpg

Edited by Haiduk
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23 minutes ago, DMS said:

 

Road goes through Logvinovo. And field roads were not enough to supply such big combat group.

Then Logvinovo should have been given back to Ukraine as per Minsk 1 or Russia should have negotiated different terms for Minsk 2.  Those were the legitimate options available to Russia, but it instead launched an offensive to take Debaltseve and used regular Russia military forces to do it.

No matter how you dance around this, the fact is still the same...  Debaltseve should be under Ukrainian control as per Minsk 2.

23 minutes ago, DMS said:

Kiev authorities won't follow Minsk either, as they would be overthrown by more radical forces. They constantly tell about retaking "Ukrainian land" by force, not peacefully, with constitution reforms, amnesty, e.t.c.. Russian side may wait as long as needed, while Ukrainians have economical and polititacl problems. So war won't stop soon.

The burden is on Russia to comply.  It started this war, it controls the DPR/LPR, and it is in gross violation of international law and the Budapest agreement.  Russia is supposed to withdraw all of its forces from Ukraine and allow monitoring of the border and until that happens nothing else is possible.

23 minutes ago, DMS said:

I just wanted to note that nationalists never were in majority. Most of soldiers are usual apolitical people, mainly pro-soviet.

I do not agree with that.  Especially at the beginning.  Novorussia was not an apolitical concept and "pro-Soviet" is largely seen as "pro-Russian" because Moscow is the heart of all decision making.

23 minutes ago, DMS said:

Radicals of all sorts don't like to sit in trenches for months.

They are paid to be there and many don't have anything better to do for money.

23 minutes ago, DMS said:

By the way, I found nice operative map from mentioned above Strelkov-Girkin: map He writes that losses are several dozens from both sides. Scale of engagements is equal to Debaltsevo.

I'll have to look at that later, but I'm not sure how good a source Girkin is now that he is not fighting directly in Ukraine any more (always questionable even before).  I also don't understand the reference to the scale of fighting.  Debatlseve was a huge battle by this war's standards.

Steve

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41 minutes ago, DMS said:

Scale of engagements is equal to Debaltsevo.

Epicenter of fighting is about 3 km by front (and "promka" itself about 1,5 km). About two+ companies from both sides and mass of artillery back. Where did Strelkov see "Debaltsevo scale" ?

Edited by Haiduk
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Thank you Haiduk. 

That's very interesting note about the scale -  2 companies,  various detachments,  teams,  etc,  backed by far more concentrated artillery. 

I remember reading an article years ago about troop concentration through the ages. They suggested a future where very dispersed, highly capable teams would form a deep, mobile and flexible front, using standoff, precision OTH artillery/missile systems to nail each other. 

This war feels like a Spanish Civil War precursor to the WW. 

OH LOOK NO PARTISAN POLITICS IN MY POST

How hard was that? 

NOT VERY. 

 

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12 hours ago, DMS said:

Unlike Ukrainian nazis, who are celebrated at goverment level. Bandera, Shuhevish and their modern followers.

Do you know why I never bring up the 1,000,000+ ethnic Russians who fought alongside the Nazis during WW2 that also proudly wore the ribbon of St. George? Because it's irrelevant and I don't care. What matters in 2017 is that the Russian government is behaving like fascists and slaughtering brother Slavs.

Look, I don't mean to be rude but doing 'whataboutism' about ancient events is counterproductive. I could mention brutal russification of ethnic minorities in Russian Empire and Soviet Union and you could mention Bogdan Khmelnitskiy's cossack bands pillaging half of Poland but it's not going to lead anywhere.

Edited by JUAN DEAG
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Since the night enemy four time was attacking own lost position "Almaz" with forces in 30-40 men, all attacks were repelled. Between attacks positions shelled with full spectre of heavy weapon - from mortars to "Grads" (5-10 rockets in salvo).

Sniper group of 3rd special force regiment with western rifles is supporting. Probably yesterday exactly they have destroyed Russian sniper from Ulyanovsk - Alexandr Cheberov (callsign Skif) - on photo below. Alas, I have no time to translate the post from some Russian social network about this.

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WFyqCc4hLWM.jpg

For 31.01 we have 1 KIA and 18 WIA, but this information for whole frontline, not only for Avdiivka. 

Edited by Haiduk
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Cease-Fire Violations in Eastern Ukraine

Press Statement
Mark C. Toner
Acting Spokesperson
Washington, DC
January 31, 2017

The United States is deeply concerned with the recent spike in violence in eastern Ukraine around Avdiivka-Yasynuvata. Since January 28, the OSCE’s Special Monitoring Mission has reported a dramatic increase in fighting, including with heavy artillery and other weapons proscribed by the Minsk agreements. The fighting has caused dozens of Ukrainian military casualties and 10 civilian casualties. It has also left 17,000 civilians, including 2,500 children, without water, heat, or electricity. To avert a larger humanitarian crisis, we call for an immediate, sustained ceasefire and full and unfettered access for OSCE monitors. We also reaffirm U.S. support for full implementation of the Minsk agreements.

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12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

The burden is on Russia to comply.  It started this war, it controls the DPR/LPR, and it is in gross violation of international law and the Budapest agreement.  Russia is supposed to withdraw all of its forces from Ukraine and allow monitoring of the border and until that happens nothing else is possible.

The list is long. Constitution reform, amnesty and many others. Border - one of the last paragraphs. And no reforms, no amnesty, only "повзучий наступ укропов" ("crawling attack", idiom)
   

12 hours ago, Battlefront.com said:

I also don't understand the reference to the scale of fighting.  Debatlseve was a huge battle by this war's standards.

 

Yes, it was. Artillery fire is very intensive now.

 

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13 hours ago, kinophile said:

That's very interesting note about the scale -  2 companies,  various detachments,  teams,  etc,  backed by far more concentrated artillery. 

I remember reading an article years ago about troop concentration through the ages. They suggested a future where very dispersed, highly capable teams would form a deep, mobile and flexible front, using standoff, precision OTH artillery/missile systems to nail each other. 

This war feels like a Spanish Civil War precursor to the WW. 

 

Eh, artillery always scales for the mission - and attacking fortifications even in 'dressing' attacks always requires much more than the usual complement so in that regard I wouldn't read too much into it. Both sides have the firepower to spare too; its not like either side are launching sweeping, decisive efforts. Nor are they too capable for one reason or the other.

I imagine a lot of the r-strength firepower has to do with the fact that DNR infantry can't carry an attack without it...or with it, it seems. Thankfully.

Interesting analogy with the Spanish Civil War though, but I can't help but feel it doesn't fit much.' The static nature of the front is as much a political reality as a military one; we saw pretty dramatic maneuver warfare earlier in the conflict and pretty serious material losses. I'm willing to accept that there's a bit of exhaustion on both sides but certainly the UA has bounced back from their earlier material losses to the point where if they wanted to launch a clear, combined-arms operational effort, they could.

Nothing to speak for its effectiveness or cohesion though, which I'm in no position to even speculate on.

Re: "The fighting has caused dozens of Ukrainian military casualties " from @DMS

I got to say man, not even Haiduk is disagreeing with you. Not precisely sure what you're trying to get at - Haiduk's update of 30.01 mentions 1 KIA, 20 WIA - completely belivable and quite literally the definition of 'dozens' of casaulties especially when you take all the other UA's confirmed losses from other minor actions. Remember: Casaulties =/= solely fatalities. If your point here is to show that the UA is no less dubious a source than Russian and DNR claims, you're not making much of an impression. If anything you're showing the opposite.

Edited by Rinaldi
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