Tactical Questions - Getting Back In

[John S]

Just started playing Combat Mission again after a two year layoff.  I am a veteran wargamer (started 1960) but never felt like I was any good at Combat Mission.  Now, in semi retirement, I am hopeful that I can get the comfort level that I have never had.  Let me ask you experts a few questions. 

1)  Scouts - how do you guys use scouts to approach exposed high risk positions?  Do you crawl ("Slow") to the ridgeline.  If you use Hunt with Hide does that help reduce the casualties/pinning in trying to get to an high risk observation position?

2)  Assault - do you Assault with an entire squad or do you take a squad and split it using the Split Teams/Assault team command.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

3)  Help me understand "Hide".  Is it a good way to end movement when you are approaching a danger point or does it lower observation such that it is really a bad idea if advancing.  Once you hit "Hide", how do you call it off? 

4) What are the tips for assaulting a building - at some point years ago I recall someone saying you stop outside and pause cause then they throw grenades in.  What steps work best here?

5)  Can you use panzerfaust/bazooka against a building or pillbox?  If so, any special steps you need to take?

6)  I recently had a squad (in the Out On A Limb scenario, Market Garden) which had high explosives near a wooden enemy pillbox.  I tried to use the Blast command but could not get them (non engineers) to blow the pillbox.  Any explanation or tips?

7) There is an odd comment in Tutorial Mission 3 for Final Blitzkrieg.  It says "In all missions, you will receive a default setup that is usually good enough to begin playing with immediately...." Not sure whether this reference is intended to apply only to the tutorial Missions.  Is this comment true of the Battles?  I have always assumed that I needed to substantially rejigger the setup in all Battles and Quick Battles?  Have I been wasting a lot of time by doing so?

Any help much appreciated.  Thanks guys.

 

[womble]

1 hour ago, John S said:

Just started playing Combat Mission again after a two year layoff.  I am a veteran wargamer (started 1960) but never felt like I was any good at Combat Mission.  Now, in semi retirement, I am hopeful that I can get the comfort level that I have never had.  Let me ask you experts a few questions. 

Welcome back. I'll offer a few suggestions before bedtime...

1 hour ago, John S said:

1)  Scouts - how do you guys use scouts to approach exposed high risk positions?  Do you crawl ("Slow") to the ridgeline.  If you use Hunt with Hide does that help reduce the casualties/pinning in trying to get to an high risk observation position?

Assuming by "Scout" that you mean an element you're trying to get into a position where it can see and not be seen itself: don't approach exposed high risk positions; find another way. Any element in an exposed position will make a lousy scout, since it will be spotted quickly by enemy infantry and engaged. It might make a decent "point man", but even if you crawl (aye, "Slow"), you'll need more than just a ridgeline (some weeds or tall grass) to hide in. Hunt has very restricted use in approaching exposed locations, because as soon as they receive fire in their approach, or spot their first enemy, they'll stop, which "usually" means they don't reach their intended perch. Hide has no purpose while moving, and perhaps even less for Scouts because it doesn't help at all until they stop, and stops them observing properly when they do. It's been determined that Hunting troops won't hit the dirt if they see something that's outside their permitted fire arc, so you can maybe keep a Hunting scout advancing a bit further by having a short TA, but they'll hit the dirt as soon as they receive any incoming anyway.

1 hour ago, John S said:

2)  Assault - do you Assault with an entire squad or do you take a squad and split it using the Split Teams/Assault team command.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

Split it. I split my teams at setup as SOP. The only advantage of the Assault command is the reduced micro. As far as I'm concerned, it's there for the convenience of the AI (which won't split teams) and Real Time players (who want to reduce the micromanagement). But at the point you want to sent a team in to assault onto a position, you need to check that you actually need to do so. Most of the time, if you can get enough suppression on the target position to let your assaulters get close enough for grenades, you'll find the enemy TacAI has bugged the defenders out before your Assault Teams get there.

1 hour ago, John S said:

3)  Help me understand "Hide".  Is it a good way to end movement when you are approaching a danger point or does it lower observation such that it is really a bad idea if advancing.  Once you hit "Hide", how do you call it off?

Hide does several things: it reduces the element's willingness to give away its position by firing; it gets the element to go prone if it's infantry; it reduces the amount of time that any "idle" infantryman spends "Spotting". Being prone is good for concealment if there's concealment to be had, and can keep the element in complete defilade behind even low linear hard obstacles. Whether it's a good way to end movement is situational. To cancel it, go to the Special orders tab and click Hide again, and it will unhighlight.

 

And now I must abed. I'm sure someone will be along to amplify/modify what I've said and help with the remaining points before I can get back

[Bulletpoint]

1 hour ago, John S said:

Just started playing Combat Mission again after a two year layoff.  I am a veteran wargamer (started 1960) but never felt like I was any good at Combat Mission.  Now, in semi retirement, I am hopeful that I can get the comfort level that I have never had.  Let me ask you experts a few questions. 

You started wargaming a full 20 years before I was born, so you're the expert, not me. But I know a few things about this game at least, so I hope my findings could be useful.

1 hour ago, John S said:

1)  Scouts - how do you guys use scouts to approach exposed high risk positions?  Do you crawl ("Slow") to the ridgeline.  If you use Hunt with Hide does that help reduce the casualties/pinning in trying to get to an high risk observation position?

For a ridgeline, I use "hunt". Because then the scouts come gradually into view of enemies on the other side of the ridge, so when they take fire, they are only slightly exposed, making them more likely to survive. Then when they drop to the ground they are behind the ridge, which breaks Line of Sight, and  they are often safe to crawl back.

I never use hide with scouts, but it could work. All it would do would be to make sure that they stay down, instead of popping back up after the suppression wears off. If they are in tall grass or similar it could protect them, but it also means they wouldn't spot anything.

1 hour ago, John S said:

2)  Assault - do you Assault with an entire squad or do you take a squad and split it using the Split Teams/Assault team command.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

The assault command is not really for attacking, it's for leapfrogging movement across open ground. You can combine it with a target order to keep up suppressing fire, but it really just automates what you can do manually by splitting squads.

1 hour ago, John S said:

Once you hit "Hide", how do you call it off? 

You just click the hide button again, it works like a toggle.

1 hour ago, John S said:

4) What are the tips for assaulting a building - at some point years ago I recall someone saying you stop outside and pause cause then they throw grenades in.  What steps work best here?

Huge topic here. Best thing is to not assault buildings at all - if you can get enough rifles into cover close enough to shoot it out with the occupants (you need to get closer than 200m, and preferably 100m), you will win the firefight from the outside and then move in later. Don't do area fire, or the enemy will just stay down. They can survive almost forever while covering inside a house.

If you must assault, first rule of thumb is that you need lots of suppressing fire on the building, and usually more than you think you need. As much as you can get. Ideally the fire should come from one side (must have windows), and then you send up a team to another side of the building, because if you send the team to the same side getting hit by fire, then your team will also be suppressed.

If the enemy is on the first floor, and there are windows, your troops will fire and throw grenades from the outside, once they spot the enemy inside. This is optimal. If there is just a door, or if the enemy is on another floor, then you need to enter (important: use "quick" movement to enter), and hopefully the enemy will be fully suppressed and you will win. But they have a nasty habit of "waking up" from suppression the moment you rush in, and it can go very wrong.

1 hour ago, John S said:

5)  Can you use panzerfaust/bazooka against a building or pillbox?  If so, any special steps you need to take?

You can use bazookas against buildings, but you don't have fine control of this, it's up to the mood of the pixel soldier. If he spots an enemy inside, often he will choose to use the bazooka, but sometimes not. If you place a target order on the building, sometimes after some time of firing all the rifles etc. the bazooka guy will decide to use a rocket, but it's difficult to know if he will do it or not. And the effect on the target seems small. I once spent 5 PIAT bombs on a building seemingly with no effect on the enemy inside.

As for pillboxes, you usually just need to get the bazooka close enough and with line of fire, and he fires quite quickly. Sometimes the shot will kill all the occupants but leave the bunker intact, and then I don't know how to destroy it with infantry. A tank can knock it out when given a direct fire order.

1 hour ago, John S said:

6)  I recently had a squad (in the Out On A Limb scenario, Market Garden) which had high explosives near a wooden enemy pillbox.  I tried to use the Blast command but could not get them (non engineers) to blow the pillbox.  Any explanation or tips?

If the bunker is occupied, you can move the engineers close to it, and they will throw grenades, and usually an explosive charge that will knock out the bunker in one hit. However, if they decide to only throw grenades, you need to be careful, as there's a design flaw with bunkers that makes the inhabitants get angry and come out fighting, and the flaw makes them invulnerable while they exit - but your guys will fire at them anyway, which means that when they finally exit fully and are killable again, all your guys will be caught reloading and get mown down.

 

 

[Michael Emrys]

8 hours ago, John S said:

1)  Scouts - how do you guys use scouts to approach exposed high risk positions?  Do you crawl ("Slow") to the ridgeline.  If you use Hunt with Hide does that help reduce the casualties/pinning in trying to get to an high risk observation position?

3)  Help me understand "Hide".  Is it a good way to end movement when you are approaching a danger point or does it lower observation such that it is really a bad idea if advancing.  Once you hit "Hide", how do you call it off?

Okay, I will describe my general methodology for movement and a few particulars as they might apply to scouting. You may take this or leave it as seems fit to you. In all this keep in mind that I play WEGO. If you were to play RT you might want to modify some of this to suit.

To begin with, like womble I nearly always split squads during the set-up phase. I move the teams in staggered sequence in the following way. I nearly always move them in bounds of 15-30 meters, depending on terrain and other factors, with a 10 second pause (or longer) at each waypoint. The pause not only gives them a break to catch their breath (I like to keep my riflemen in either Rested or at least Ready state), but also allows them a moment to look around and if necessary to open fire on detected enemy units. As mentioned, I stagger the movement of teams so that when one is moving, at least one and preferably two are able to provide covering fire if needed.

You specifically ask about scouting, and I assume you refer to the two man scouting teams broken off from a squad, but the technique I will describe will apply to specialist scouting teams as well as crews of vehicles who have dismounted to scout and observe.

To start with, give them a short 360° covered arc. They are here to scout and observe, not to get in any gunfights if they can help it. As mentioned, I normally will move them in Quick bounds, but two or however many AS before they might be expected to possibly make contact with the enemy, I switch to Hunt movement, just to slow them down and get them to behave more cautiously. Finally, as I approach the edge of concealing terrain, I have them Slow move that last AS and then Hide at that last waypoint. The Hide command is in case they might have attracted any unwanted attention in that last move. It means that they will have their heads down in case any fire is coming their way, and it also gives them a moment or two for any enemy soldiers who might have spotted them to forget that they are there (pixeltruppen have short memories). If there is no indication that they have been spotted, I unhide them in the next turn to give them maximum spotting efficiency. Then I leave them to it for a few turns. If there are any enemy troops around, over time your scouts may hear them or even see them, but maybe not right away.

I use this same technique when moving snipers, FOs, or any other kind of team I want to emphasize stealth, though with FOs I try to keep them out of range of effective small arms fire anyway if I have that option.

Michael

Edited July 4, 2016 by Michael Emrys

[Erwin]

All good advice above.

Small items in case there was confusion: 

In UK, Ground Floor = 1st Floor in US

If you suspect enemy in a building but they are not visible (sound contacts etc.) you will have to "Area Fire" at the building.  (Someone wrote "never Area Fire" and usually one has to Area Fire.)

IIRC one needs to be under about 25m from the building and "full fire" to get troops to use grenades (when area firing) just b4 entry into the building. 

Perhaps things have changed with patches, but the building assault technique I recall reading on these forums years ago was:

a) Area fire with everything with LOS for a few minutes to suppress the occupants - (usually twice as many minutes as you thought would be required)

b ) While everyone else fires LIGHT (so you don't suppress your assault element), close in adjacent to the building with the assault element with a PAUSE of 5-10 seconds outside the building during which the assault element will area FULL FIRE (enabling use of grenades)

c) Finally, QUICK or FAST MOVE the assault element into the building with a short arc at the final waypoint to stop the assault element's full area fire and enable them to clear the room

Doesn't always end up without friendly casualties, but the above was the recommended tactic.

Re SCOUTING:

I find this often frustrating as you would think that dedicated and presumably specially trained SCOUT teams would be better at scouting (ie: spotting enemy units) it than a two man scout split off from a regular inf unit.  However, I have not noticed any advantage when one has dedicated SCOUT TEAMS with similar experience.

It makes more sense for designers to give specialist troops like scouts, spotters, snipers, engineers etc a higher experience rating than all the other regular inf so that it makes sense to use these specialist troops for their specialist roles and not just as interchangeable with regular inf.

[Bulletpoint]

13 minutes ago, Erwin said:

In UK, Ground Floor = 1st Floor in US

Thanks for clarifying this. Yes, I meant the ground floor.

14 minutes ago, Erwin said:

If you suspect enemy in a building but they are not visible (sound contacts etc.) you will have to "Area Fire" at the building.  (Someone wrote "never Area Fire" and usually one has to Area Fire.)

Only area fire if you intend to suppress the occupants (ok, if they are low quality troops and outside of C2, you might be lucky to flush them out the back door by pouring on massive amounts of suppression, but often they just hunker down and stay put). 

My point was that assaulting by physically running into the building is to be avoided if you can. Win the firefight first, then move in.

[Bulletpoint]

19 minutes ago, Erwin said:

IIRC one needs to be under about 25m from the building and "full fire" to get troops to use grenades (when area firing) just b4 entry into the building. 

Just a point on this - I think troops will ONLY throw grenades into a building if the team is in the square next to the house. It's not about the distance in metres.

If the square is empty, the troops will bunch up against the wall, and be very vulnerable against fire from the inside (if the enemy is not very suppressed). Because troops won't stand clear of windows like in real life, so they're acting like stooges standing up in front of each window shouting IS ANYBODY HOME?

But sometimes there will be a low wall or a hedge in the square next to the house, and troops will then stick to that, giving them a bit of cover, and more importantly: distance from the wall, while still being able to throw grenades.

[DasMorbo]

21 hours ago, John S said:

1)  Scouts - how do you guys use scouts to approach exposed high risk positions?  Do you crawl ("Slow") to the ridgeline.  If you use Hunt with Hide does that help reduce the casualties/pinning in trying to get to an high risk observation position?

As George Patton once said about scouting: "Drive down that road untill you get the crap shot out of you." 

My SOP is to move units into jump-off positions with good LOS/LOF and send out the FNGs (2-man-Scout Team or normal "Split-Squad" Team of inferior quality) to draw fire. It is the sacrifice one has to make. I normally alternate between "quick"- and "hunt"-orders to give my Scouts at least a chance of survival.

21 hours ago, John S said:

2)  Assault - do you Assault with an entire squad or do you take a squad and split it using the Split Teams/Assault team command.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

My SOP is to always split Squads for a number of reasons. One is that you can choose assault paths more freely. Not splitting saves a lot of micromanagement but is really bad once under fire, from my experience.

21 hours ago, John S said:

5)  Can you use panzerfaust/bazooka against a building or pillbox?  If so, any special steps you need to take?

Experience (and physics) tell me the HEAT rounds of the aforementioned are decent anti-building weapons. Normally everytime my Pixeltruppen in buildings receive a hit (or deal one) with one of these, one or more guys go down. Problem is, they are fairly inaccurate and above 80m you seldomly hit with the first round = considerable ammo consumption.

You can make sure a team with AT-weapons hits a building when you issue an "attack"-order. Without order, the team will decide on their own.

I don't know why it didn't work for Bulletpoint, maybe it is a PIAT-realted issue?

 

21 hours ago, John S said:

6)  I recently had a squad (in the Out On A Limb scenario, Market Garden) which had high explosives near a wooden enemy pillbox.  I tried to use the Blast command but could not get them (non engineers) to blow the pillbox.  Any explanation or tips?

I played the same Scenario just recently. You have to be within 20m and use the "attack" order and sooner or later one of your Pixeltruppen will use a stachel-charge against the bunker, normally obliterating it. Of course this is only doable when you approach from an uncovered angle.

 

Hope this helps even though some topics have been adressed before.

[kevinkin]

Yes indeed, welcome back. You have some great advice above. One thing about building defense is buildings draw fire especially when they are objectives. So an opponent might decide to defend behind them or otherwise indirectly. Then bloody the attacker and move into the objective building when the coast is clear toward the end of the mission. So be careful of this tactic. Re: set-ups positions: the phrase must refer to the tutorials since the makers of community designed missions may or may not tactically deploy your forces. It is generally nice if they unravel the units placing them in logical groupings. But, I would definitely study the map, set-up and reinforcement schedule before plotting. I think most players will adjust the set-up especially for larger battles.   

Also, a site is back up just recently which looks to be another place for CM advice on a host of topics.  

http://www.users.on.net/~jennnie/battlefront/

Kevin

 

Edited July 5, 2016 by kevinkin

[MikeyD]

"2)  Assault - do you Assault with an entire squad..."

'Assault' leap-frogs teams within a squad so manually splitting the squad undoes the benefits of 'assault'. 'Assault' isn't for far-off waypoint destinations. Placing a single assault waypoint outside of LOS of the team remaining behind undoes the benefits of 'assault' command. The best use for assault (in my experience) is a string of SHORT waypoints plus an 'area fire' command against your destination So one team is firing while the other sprints, then they hit the dirt and start firing while the other team bounds forward.

"3)  Help me understand "Hide"."

Think face-down in the dirt trying to make yourself invisible - with all of the benefits and pitfalls thereof. Giving scouts hide commands is a bad idea if you want them to spot anything, unless you want them to hide in place then pop up briefly to see what's going on then go back to hiding again. Also, Green troops are crappy at hiding while Elite troops are like that Predator monster.

"4) What are the tips for assaulting a building"

First knock the building down with 155mm artillery fire. 

 

 

 

[John S]

Thanks to all of you for your help.  I can see a lot of things that I have been doing wrong but also see a lot of work ahead before improvement.

[Michael Emrys]

2 hours ago, MikeyD said:

"4) What are the tips for assaulting a building"

First knock the building down with 155mm artillery fire. 

Good advice. 

Absent heavy artillery, wheel a tank or two up and fire at the building for a couple of turns. That will usually encourage any occupants to vacate if it doesn't kill them outright. But as mentioned earlier, watch out for enemies somewhere else—like behind the building. I failed to do that once and the team I sent in got massacred by enemy troops outside where I could not spot them until it was far too late.

Michael

[womble]

One thing that I think helps comprehend Hide better is the realisation that the pTruppen already "do their best"* to seek cover and concealment respective to the axis of their facing, while finding positions to observe/fire along the same general axis. What Hide does is extra, on top of that, to the detriment of actually fighting back or observing.

* Where their "best" has some flaws inherent to AI, but is somewhat compensated for by an abstracted "terrain save" roll if they get touched by a bullet

[Bulletpoint]

14 hours ago, DasMorbo said:

I don't know why it didn't work for Bulletpoint, maybe it is a PIAT-realted issue?

Could also just be bad luck - I haven't done any tests with it, just talking from limited experience.. I tried a couple of times (2-3 times) to knock out enemies in buildings with the PIAT, but never had much luck, so I don't count on it to work.

However, against wooden bunkers, one PIAT bomb kills everyone inside 90 pct of the time, so that's definitely effective.

Edited July 5, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[John Kettler]

MikeyD,

If Hide is facedown, how do we get troops to Prone and be able to fight from that position? I know Slow is low or belly crawl (forget which). Is that how, short of having them shot at, we can get men into Prone?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Combatintman]

And of course there is @Bil Hardenberger's excellent blog with various CM Battle Drills ...

http://battledrill.blogspot.com.au/

[RockinHarry]

Sending scouts whose only purpose is to find and observe the enemy, make sure they have binocs with them! The more the better (binocs can be looted from friendly KIA/WIA, yielding 3 binocs max for a single unit). The split infantry team half with the leader (who has the binocs) or better yet, an usued HQ team. Any scout team not having binocs is likely to be detected by the enemy and engaged first, particularly at ranges below 300m.

[womble]

7 hours ago, John Kettler said:

MikeyD,

If Hide is facedown, how do we get troops to Prone and be able to fight from that position? I know Slow is low or belly crawl (forget which). Is that how, short of having them shot at, we can get men into Prone?

Regards,

John Kettler

The pTruppen will generally fight from prone if there's no cover to kneel up and shoot over. But if they're out in the open and going prone is their best option, there might have been better routes to travel.

[Bulletpoint]

11 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Any scout team not having binocs is likely to be detected by the enemy and engaged first, particularly at ranges below 300m.

Hmmm I don't know for sure, but I always assume that binoculars improve spotting at above 300 metres, not below. But I've never really been able to truly notice the effect. Sometimes my 2-man scout teams will spot some lonely enemy soldier at long range while the guys with binoculars won't see a thing...

[Michael Emrys]

13 minutes ago, Bulletpoint said:

Sometimes my 2-man scout teams will spot some lonely enemy soldier at long range while the guys with binoculars won't see a thing...

I don't find this necessarily surprising. Field glasses only help if you have them pointed in the right direction and they have a much narrower field of view than the naked eye. Even if the viewer is scanning broadly, if the spotting opportunity was a fleeting one, as is likely, he could miss it altogether whereas the naked eye viewer might catch some movement even if it isn't in the center of his vision.

Michael

[c3k]

On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2016 at 4:33 PM, John S said:

Just started playing Combat Mission again after a two year layoff.  I am a veteran wargamer (started 1960) but never felt like I was any good at Combat Mission.  Now, in semi retirement, I am hopeful that I can get the comfort level that I have never had.  Let me ask you experts a few questions. 

1)  Scouts - how do you guys use scouts to approach exposed high risk positions?  Do you crawl ("Slow") to the ridgeline.  If you use Hunt with Hide does that help reduce the casualties/pinning in trying to get to an high risk observation position?

2)  Assault - do you Assault with an entire squad or do you take a squad and split it using the Split Teams/Assault team command.  What are the advantages/disadvantages of each?

3)  Help me understand "Hide".  Is it a good way to end movement when you are approaching a danger point or does it lower observation such that it is really a bad idea if advancing.  Once you hit "Hide", how do you call it off? 

4) What are the tips for assaulting a building - at some point years ago I recall someone saying you stop outside and pause cause then they throw grenades in.  What steps work best here?

5)  Can you use panzerfaust/bazooka against a building or pillbox?  If so, any special steps you need to take?

6)  I recently had a squad (in the Out On A Limb scenario, Market Garden) which had high explosives near a wooden enemy pillbox.  I tried to use the Blast command but could not get them (non engineers) to blow the pillbox.  Any explanation or tips?

7) There is an odd comment in Tutorial Mission 3 for Final Blitzkrieg.  It says "In all missions, you will receive a default setup that is usually good enough to begin playing with immediately...." Not sure whether this reference is intended to apply only to the tutorial Missions.  Is this comment true of the Battles?  I have always assumed that I needed to substantially rejigger the setup in all Battles and Quick Battles?  Have I been wasting a lot of time by doing so?

Any help much appreciated.  Thanks guys.

 

I'm not going to add to anything which has already been written about your questions. There's a lot of good advice there, already. Instead, I'll suggest you pick one of the smaller battles and play it repeatedly. Keep doing it until you have zero casualties and a total victory. Sure, by the 2nd or 3rd play-through you'll have sussed out the enemy dispositions, forces, and actions. So what? This is an exercise meant for you to learn how to handle your troops and to experiment with some of the advice you've been given.

For example, I never use Assault. Instead, I split the squad and give separate orders to the teams.

Another example: Timing is crucial in how you coordinate your force's movement. Yet, if you don't practice, you'll never get a feel for how long it takes to QUICK vs MOVE or FAST. Or, how long it'll take to get that demo team up next to the building and BLAST the wall down. The only way to do this is through experience. Better to gain the first lessons on a "training" battle than on a larger one which you've invested more effort into.

Just my .02.

Welcome aboard.

Ken