Friendly fire is actually in the game

[Bulletpoint]

I used to think that small arms could never cause friendly fire in this game, but it seems they can, and I'm not talking about ricochets. If the shooting unit does not spot the friendly unit, small-calibre area fire will kill friendlies.

Try it out in a night battle, order your tank to machinegun some distant field and then send in some infantry. If the tank doesn't spot the infantry, the infantry will take casualties. Then order your tank to fire machineguns at friendly infantry that is very close in front of the tank. The tank can fire away all day without causing any casualties.

It also works with rifles.

So, spotting friendlies is actually very important! Which makes perfect sense.

(I tested this on Elite difficulty and later on Iron difficulty to help me know which units spots which)

[A Canadian Cat]

Oh cool. I never knew that. How did you stumble ok on that discovery?

[Bulletpoint]

22 minutes ago, IanL said:

Oh cool. I never knew that. How did you stumble ok on that discovery?

I was playing a night battle from the Commonwealth expansion, and I used tanks to suppress the enemy positions while advancing. Kept losing men in the line of fire at the exact moment the tanks fired, but kept disregarding it because I was convinced it couldn't happen  

Then finally I decided to test it, but only tested it with tanks firing from close range. No casualties, so I thought I must have been imagining things, and probably it was hidden enemy firing.

But then I began wondering why it was suddenly happening so often compared to my regular games, and I realised the difference was that I normally never play night battles... suddenly a lightbulb moment

Anyway, this has implications not only for night battles.

If you're using smoke and shooting into the smoke to suppress, don't send your infantry into the line of fire.

If you're in a forest, be careful about suppressing, because you might not spot your friendlies inside the woods, even at short ranges. I don't know if friendly handgrenades also turn deadly against unspotted friendlies, but I guess it's possible.

If you're using a machinegun to provide long-range suppression (more than 500m range?), be careful, especially if your MG team doesn't have binoculars.

Edited July 1, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[A Canadian Cat]

Cool. Good detective work.  

PS friendly hand grenades are always dangerous to your own side.

[RockinHarry]

Beside ricochets, the only other occasion I´m aware of is when ptroopers 3D geometry (or hitbox) intersect with other 3D geometry (hugging a tree i.e), when receiving friendly bullets. Got to watch out for what Bulletpoint describes, as I´m playing iron mode exclusively. ^^

[Cobetco]

good to know, i only just started playing on iron and will have to keep this in mind now... may have to adjust how i go about clearing woods now too... hmmmm that might actually become a problem

[Bulletpoint]

3 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Got to watch out for what Bulletpoint describes, as I´m playing iron mode exclusively. ^^

The friendly fire happens both on elite and iron mode, as far as I can see. But Iron mode makes it easier to know if your tank can see the infantry, on other modes you need to guess.

By the way, I noticed Iron mode is much more difficult at night, because your troops won't see their platoon leader unless they are very close, so it's difficult to maintain command and control.

5 hours ago, IanL said:

PS friendly hand grenades are always dangerous to your own side.

I never noticed that.

Can friendly handgrenades kill members of the squad that threw them, or are they only dangerous to other friendly squads?

Edited July 1, 2016 by Bulletpoint

[Anthony P.]

They can definitely kill their own squad mates. So far I've only seen it happen when the guy throwing the grenade is hit before he's actually thrown it. I've had some cases of guys throwing a grenade that for some reason or another landed pretty much right in their own unit, but either they don't kill, or they've not been close enough.

As such: 

 

Edited July 1, 2016 by Anthony P.

[A Canadian Cat]

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

 never noticed that.

Can friendly handgrenades kill members of the squad that threw them, or are they only dangerous to other friendly squads?

Everyone. My "favourite" story is one time a grenade thrower was winding up to throw and got hit. He and the grenade dropped in the middle of the team and took out two other guys.

[Abbasid111]

Yeah, I hate when the thrower gets and the the grenade takes out his own fireteam!

[Michael Emrys]

Has anyone ever seen a grenade hit a tree or other solid object and bounce back?

Michael

[Erwin]

Yes... 

However, has there been an update that changed small arms effects.  I am certain that we used to be told that anything under 50 cal will not hurt friendlies.  It can suppress but not wound or kill.  has that changed?

[StieliAlpha]

I am quite sure, that I have seen "blue on blue" a few times. E.g., when some smart advancing infantry crossed the line of fire of an overwatch MG. Of course, the MG fired at some distant enemy target, but killed the own guys with shots in the back, nevertheless.

[John Kettler]

Bulletpoint,

My first experience with the unfriendliness of friendly  fire was in CMBO. There, I had a stout stone house under German HMG fire. After beating on it for several turns, I sent in a squad of Panzergrenadiers in a 251 to debus and finish the job. Since my HMG didn't get the word to cease fire... Squad got badly shot up as a result. Also, it was pretty easy to commit amicide in fog and other similar conditions. I am of the firm opinion that amicide should be depicted at every level of the game; that ARs and other weapons should not get a pass. As the colonial period armed Quaker famously said to the burglar in his living room, "Friend, I would not harm thee for all the world, but thee art standing where I am about to shoot!" I haven't played CMFB yet, so can't speak to how things are now.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Bulletpoint]

13 hours ago, John Kettler said:

I am of the firm opinion that amicide should be depicted at every level of the game; that ARs and other weapons should not get a pass.

Exactly John, that was my point  Until now everybody has assumed that machineguns and rifles could not kill friendlies in this game (CMBN - I don't know about CMBO). But I found out that they can, if the shooter doesn't spot the friendlies. I was very happy to find out about this, as I feel this is exactly how it should be in the game.

[MOS:96B2P]

2 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

<Snip> if the shooter doesn't spot the friendlies. <Snip> 

Another plus for playing on Iron.  I also need to play some WWII night missions.  I have no specific TACSOPs for night missions.   

[Bulletpoint]

47 minutes ago, MOS:96B2P said:

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

<Snip> if the shooter doesn't spot the friendlies. <Snip> 

Another plus for playing on Iron.

No, it's also happening on Elite difficulty. And probably on the other difficulties as well, but haven't tested that.

I think it should only happen on Iron, that would fit well with the entire point of having a difficulty that adds the extra challenge of spotting friendlies. Maybe it's an oversight that it also happens on lower difficulties..

[MOS:96B2P]

3 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

No, it's also happening on Elite difficulty. And probably on the other difficulties as well, but haven't tested that.

I think it should only happen on Iron, that would fit well with the entire point of having a difficulty that adds the extra challenge of spotting friendlies. Maybe it's an oversight that it also happens on lower difficulties..

Sorry,  what I meant was that skill level iron makes it easier to understand what is going on with the C2 situation.  This is especially important the way you're describing spotting and friendly fire during night battles.  On skill level iron, during the action/playback phase (Not the orders phase), if you click on a friendly unit, B-team, only other units that B-team is aware of appear.  This includes friendly units.  This is the main difference between iron and elite skill levels.  So iron skill level will let you know that B-team is not aware that the F/O team is in that clump of trees up ahead.  This, at least in theory, will help prevent friendly fire incidents especially in low light conditions.  

And yes if this friendly night fire is happening on iron I would expect it to happen on all skill levels.  (If it should happen on all skill levels or not could be an entire new topic probably )

Below is a link to some information (including screenshots) on skill level iron and the differences with skill level elite.       

     

[Michael Emrys]

7 hours ago, Bulletpoint said:

Until now everybody has assumed that machineguns and rifles could not kill friendlies in this game (CMBN - I don't know about CMBO).

I had a friendly fire incident in CMBO. The Germans had set up in a tree line and I had to root them out. I suppressed each German position that I identified and sent an HT full of infantry to assault each one. The deal was that the MG in the HT would continue suppressive fire as it approached the position, then when the position was reached the infantry would leap out and finish the job. All went fine except in this one case where the squad got zapped badly when it debussed. This puzzled me because I could not figure out who had done the shooting. The enemy target were indeed suppressed and totally helpless, so it wasn't them, and there was nobody else around who I thought might have done it. I played the turn over and over again and finally figured out that they had gotten hit when they walked into the fire of their own MG. I had thought that was not possible since I had been firing through friendly units for months by that time. But in certain circumstance, and this was one, it very definitely could happen. Live and learn. Nowadays I try to remember to cease suppressive fire in any turn where I plan to put my own troops in the same AS as the enemy.

Michael

[womble]

23 hours ago, John Kettler said:

 am of the firm opinion that amicide should be depicted at every level of the game; that ARs and other weapons should not get a pass.

It is not made so, because the TacAI isn't clever enough to cease fire when it sees friendlies enter its firing line. The human player might be up to the task of micromanaging the cease fire of the firebase in the orders phase (or using Target Briefly orders) before the assault teams go onto the target, but the poor bloody AI definitely isn't. The human player doesn't need any more advantages over the AI.

[Bulletpoint]

12 hours ago, womble said:

It is not made so, because the TacAI isn't clever enough to cease fire when it sees friendlies enter its firing line. The human player might be up to the task of micromanaging the cease fire of the firebase in the orders phase (or using Target Briefly orders) before the assault teams go onto the target, but the poor bloody AI definitely isn't. The human player doesn't need any more advantages over the AI.

Well it's a bit of a moot point, since the AI cannot conduct an assault anyway. Unless we call running blindly towards the enemy an assault.

I think the way friendly fire is currently implemented in the game is quite elegant, using spotting as a cue.

[Erwin]

Is this is definitely confirmed?  That even small arms fire can wound or kill?  Am sure that it used to be that anything under 50 cal would only suppress. 

[Bulletpoint]

2 minutes ago, Erwin said:

Is this is definitely confirmed?  That even small arms fire can wound or kill?  Am sure that it used to be that anything under 50 cal would only suppress. 

Yeah I'm sure of the same thing, but try it out for yourself

[Erwin]

I have simply never been aware of friendly casualties from small arms - even recently.  However, I nearly always use FIRE LIGHT.

[A Canadian Cat]

@Erwin don't let your self become confused.  There has been no change to the game.  Small arms below .50cal still does not cause friendly fire casualties - for the vast majority part. 

What @Bulletpoint discovered is that the no friendly fire casualties from small arms only holds true if the firing unit actually sees the friendly unit.  He noticed some surprises in low visibility situations and investigated to make the discovery.  Since there has been no code changes to the game, in this area, nothing has changed we just know more.  The majority of the time when we play and have area fire close to our own troops everyone on your side can see each other. I think that will remain the majority of the time.  We just now know that in those situations where visibility is poor friendly fire from small arms might rear its ugly head.