Kampfgruppe Peiper Campaign

[Erwin]

If one simply knew which units were returning and which were not, it would help.  The challenge is how to persuade players to not use the non-returning units as expendable cannon fodder. 

How about using the way players can make a choice of next mission by heading to an exit and CF-ing or choosing an immediate CF.  Maybe the choice should be: "If your x, y z units are in good shape, go for [Option A]. if they are badly depleted, go for [Option B]". 

In this example, either the scenarios could be of different difficulties, or, one of the options will have more reinforcements or replacements.  Perhaps the "easier" option could require a higher level of victory in order to successfully move on to the next mission.

[sandman2575]

4 hours ago, Doc844 said:

The mission lifeline is one tough SOB.  I have 37 mins left on the clock, I've taken out 6 Priests but I've only managed to take the first objective.  My force is largEly intact but trying to screen away from that hilltop position just eats in to the time.  A yoke else having kittens over this one.

 

I'm not sure there's any sure way to win Lifeline without some serious luck and benefit of hindsight (i.e. a second playover) -- even then I'm not sure it's doable. I'm at the 29:00 remaining mark and like you Doc I've only taken the Highway Screen 1st objective. I've also taken out the 6 priests but keyholed AT guns are everywhere. How I'm supposed to make it through 3 more objectives to the bridge, with 29 moves remaining... pretty much a lost cause.

Unless I'm mistaken though -- ? -- this is where we're supposed to fail, in a sense? Did Peiper ever manage to reopen his lines once the Amis retook Stavelot?  (I just read Beevor's Bulge book a few months ago but don't recall exactly -- I'm sure folks here will correct me though!)

Just for the record -- here's a pic of one of my KTigers at the 29:00 mark. The other is in similar shape. Both still runners, both still with their 88s intact, but optics shot to hell. It's a good thing these things can take a beating, because that's what this scenario dishes out.

 

 

 

 

 

[Doc844]

Yes i get the distinct feeling that im meant to fail here also.  My KTigers dont have a scratch yet but ive been very conservative with them mainly because as you said they can take a beating but their sub-systems cant.  I have a plan but whether it will work or not is another matter.  I have my FO and Pioneer platoon over on the hill to the left where i killed the Priests from so im hoping i can suppress his AT with mortar fire and distract them with my Ktigers, then rush those pioneers down into the town where there is that curve in the road, plus send my main inf force forward on to the next obj.  Not sure if i will have enough assets to suppress properly but its the only way i can see to break into the town quickly enough.  War is hell and the poor bloody inf are going to catch it again.

[GhostRider3/3]

43 minutes ago, Doc844 said:

Yes i get the distinct feeling that im meant to fail here also.  My KTigers dont have a scratch yet but ive been very conservative with them mainly because as you said they can take a beating but their sub-systems cant.  I have a plan but whether it will work or not is another matter.  I have my FO and Pioneer platoon over on the hill to the left where i killed the Priests from so im hoping i can suppress his AT with mortar fire and distract them with my Ktigers, then rush those pioneers down into the town where there is that curve in the road, plus send my main inf force forward on to the next obj.  Not sure if i will have enough assets to suppress properly but its the only way i can see to break into the town quickly enough.  War is hell and the poor bloody inf are going to catch it again.

I used somewhat the same plan to knock out some of the priests near the wood line at the bottom of the hill... however the Priests with Perfect vision.. saw my infantry moving down the hill and eviscerated them.  I have to say that this was the end mission intentionally in a way for the German campaign.. as it was in history.  Too bad all the good work you did in the early stages and sacrifices..  are for not.  In my Hypothetical mind Stavelot was already taken earlier and destroyed by point blank fire... and the Fuel Dump was taken intact. We left a large group and moved on.. (I think a better scenario instead of 'Lifeline" would have been defending the lifeline from the Americans...  Anyways I moved on to the next scenario.

[Doc844]

46 minutes ago, GhostRider3/3 said:

I used somewhat the same plan to knock out some of the priests near the wood line at the bottom of the hill... however the Priests with Perfect vision.. saw my infantry moving down the hill and eviscerated them.  I have to say that this was the end mission intentionally in a way for the German campaign.. as it was in history.  Too bad all the good work you did in the early stages and sacrifices..  are for not.  In my Hypothetical mind Stavelot was already taken earlier and destroyed by point blank fire... and the Fuel Dump was taken intact. We left a large group and moved on.. (I think a better scenario instead of 'Lifeline" would have been defending the lifeline from the Americans...  Anyways I moved on to the next scenario.

Im hoping i might fair better on my left flanking movement.  I have taken out the Priests on the high ground and the ones lower in the valley.  Its the AT guns that have me worried, Im going to take a few minutes to see if i can pin point more positions while my inf. are getting into position then it will be go,go.  Im also going to offer up my Ktigers as targets for his ATs just to keep him busy.  So if the timing works and everyone jumps off at the right times i reckon ive got a 60-40 chance of making it into the town intact.  Then ive got try and knife fight my way through the town.  All or nothing now.  Ill let you know how i get on, theres a high chance it may be screenies of lots of burning Hanomags lol.

[GhostRider3/3]

1 hour ago, Doc844 said:

Im hoping i might fair better on my left flanking movement.  I have taken out the Priests on the high ground and the ones lower in the valley.  Its the AT guns that have me worried, Im going to take a few minutes to see if i can pin point more positions while my inf. are getting into position then it will be go,go.  Im also going to offer up my Ktigers as targets for his ATs just to keep him busy.  So if the timing works and everyone jumps off at the right times i reckon ive got a 60-40 chance of making it into the town intact.  Then ive got try and knife fight my way through the town.  All or nothing now.  Ill let you know how i get on, theres a high chance it may be screenies of lots of burning Hanomags lol.

Sounds like a decent plan.  I saved my game so I may finish it and see what happens next.  Let me know how your plan works.  Good luck.

[Frederico]

Spoiler:        Highlight to read.

I got through lifeline, but only on the second try. After clearing the first objective I used the approach down by the river heading straight for the bridge and used the tanks to screen.

Smoke helped get them close and then a close assault against a somewhat light force in the bridge area. I was then able to work back up towards the town objectives.

Unfortunately (depending on what you have left of your forces) the next battle at Werbomont is not any easier.

Pieper is destined to fail today just as he did in 1944. That is one of the things that  makes this campaign so interesting. You really get a feel for the desperate situation facing Pieper's forces.

[Doc844]

Thanks for the post Frederico.  I did look at the river bank option but I thought it looked a bit dicey.  Think I will go and take a second look lol.  Yes yes I know it's cheating, I'm going to pretend that my 2ic has been arguing with me about an alternative assault plan and he has convinced me to re-assess the river bank option. 

[sandman2575]

6 hours ago, Doc844 said:

Im hoping i might fair better on my left flanking movement.  I have taken out the Priests on the high ground and the ones lower in the valley.  Its the AT guns that have me worried, Im going to take a few minutes to see if i can pin point more positions while my inf. are getting into position then it will be go,go.  Im also going to offer up my Ktigers as targets for his ATs just to keep him busy.  So if the timing works and everyone jumps off at the right times i reckon ive got a 60-40 chance of making it into the town intact.  Then ive got try and knife fight my way through the town.  All or nothing now.  Ill let you know how i get on, theres a high chance it may be screenies of lots of burning Hanomags lol.

This is of course the correct approach -- and exactly the approach you won't have time to pursue. I really believe that an extra 30 minutes (1hr30min total) would make all the difference. I *hate* when missions like this are artificially constrained by a highly unrealistic time limit.

While I understand that a hour of 'in game' time does not correspond to a real hour -- that 'game time' is in some sense condensed and abstracted, because what takes one minute to accomplish by the game clock would take 5-10 times that in real time -- I still feel 'an hour' for Lifeline is absurdly short. I actually found 2 hours for Stoumont to be quite doable -- I didn't try to take the Sanitarium on the edge of the map but did take all the other objectives with about 30 minutes to spare and managed a major victory.

Right now I'm facing the prospect of racing my mounted platoons down narrow roadways into Stavelot, with all its blind corners and limitless ambush possibilities. If I got even 25% of them to the bridge I'd be surprised. Both my KTigers have their eyes poked out -- my Panther is still in good shape though.

Oh well. Looks like it's 'once more into the breach' for me and my pixeltruppen...

 

 

 

[mjkerner]

2 hours ago, sandman2575 said:

Oh well. Looks like it's 'once more into the breach' for me and my pixeltruppen...

 

 

 

That's the spirit!  'ave at 'em!

[GhostRider3/3]

16 hours ago, Doc844 said:

Thanks for the post Frederico.  I did look at the river bank option but I thought it looked a bit dicey.  Think I will go and take a second look lol.  Yes yes I know it's cheating, I'm going to pretend that my 2ic has been arguing with me about an alternative assault plan and he has convinced me to re-assess the river bank option. 

LOL... good idea. 

[Wodin]

On ‎10‎/‎05‎/‎2016 at 6:33 PM, Lethaface said:

Wow that's a lot of casualties for the first mission.

Spoiler:

You have plenty of direct fire support available IIRC, and a mortar? I moved one platoon to the left and attacked frontally with all my armour and the rest of the infantry. Suffered a few casualties from the initial firefight (some stubborn MG nests) but using overwhelming fire support quickly annihilated the roadblock. In my play-through I have stalled at Stavelot, thinking I have made a mistake using up my all my artillery and heavy mortars. I do know that Stoumont is a meat grinder and will easily cost 100 casualties total with full artillery support. Anyone finished the campaign already?

Ahem..I'm being darn stupid..it isn't the German campaign I got those casualties but the American one against the paras.

 

I can see why everyone is abit shocked at my casualty figures!! I really thought I was even more useless than I already am:) In the first mission in this campaign I think I had two or three men killed and that's it.

Edited May 13, 2016 by Wodin

[sandman2575]

So, has anyone actually gotten a victory on Lifeline?  It would be encouraging to know if it's possible.

I threw in the towel at the 16:00 mark. I had basically secured the 2nd objective, the entrance into Stavelot -- but there was *no way* I was going to have either the time or forces sufficient to capture *3 more*!!  My 'battering ram' approach worked about as well as expected, i.e. not very well at all. My Panther spearheading along the main road into Stavelot with my 2 KTigers taking parallel routes on either side of the road beyond the row-houses, with my mounted grenadiers following. It wasn't pretty.

As I knew it would be, Stavelot is Ambush Central. You take out the AT gun down the lane only to be blindsided by bazooka teams as you roll by.

Can this mission be beaten? I'm skeptical. The deck is so heavily stacked against you -- and the 1 hr. time limit is ridiculous.

[GhostRider3/3]

On ‎5‎/‎15‎/‎2016 at 7:50 PM, sandman2575 said:

So, has anyone actually gotten a victory on Lifeline?  It would be encouraging to know if it's possible.

I threw in the towel at the 16:00 mark. I had basically secured the 2nd objective, the entrance into Stavelot -- but there was *no way* I was going to have either the time or forces sufficient to capture *3 more*!!  My 'battering ram' approach worked about as well as expected, i.e. not very well at all. My Panther spearheading along the main road into Stavelot with my 2 KTigers taking parallel routes on either side of the road beyond the row-houses, with my mounted grenadiers following. It wasn't pretty.

As I knew it would be, Stavelot is Ambush Central. You take out the AT gun down the lane only to be blindsided by bazooka teams as you roll by.

Can this mission be beaten? I'm skeptical. The deck is so heavily stacked against you -- and the 1 hr. time limit is ridiculous.

I think your analysis is correct:  The Deck is stacked against you by a lot.  I threw in the towel on my first try, even though you generally know where things might be from your recon report.  I counted the guns against you.  x6 105mm SP Howitzers that can destroy anything on the board and render even the KT useless.  x2 76mm ATG, x3 57mm ATG again.. can render pretty much everything on the board useless. and at least 10-12HMG and probably at least 8-10 Bazooka's, not to mention their artillery.  Yes its a lot to go up against with probably the most anti-assault force assembled.  Lets face it, you basically only have 1 hour, and you need to Assault an entire town.  It takes at least 10min just to maneuver forces from the starting point.  You have no heavy artillery at all even though you would have Corps level support most likely... well probably if Stavelot was so vital anyways.  I think the Designers wanted this to be an accurate failure, as KG Knittel could do little in Stavelot.

However I really think if you did well in the beginning then you should have a change with some kind of alternate history.. ie, if you were successful in every mission to a degree would the end not change???  It's really up to the Campaign designers.  I have to admit, "Lifeline" was a complete downer to a really immersive campaign... I felt cheated.

[Lille Fiskerby]

I hate to say, but I won it the first time I played it, major victory . The mission is difficult and takes a lot of planning.

Infantry: There are 4 OBJ in Stavelot and you have 4 infantry platoons, one to take each OBJ in the town. Move two platoons to take inf. screen OBJ and then mount them up again.

I took one AT gun out with a preplanned firemission (medium/harass), after OBJ Screen is secure move kingtigers (KT) forward keep in an angle so you dont take on all SP's and

AT-guns at once. Keep the KTs close together and dont use area fire let the US gunners open fire first. Use the Panther in support of KTs but at an other location.

I only took out two SP's the rest backed of away from the KTs. Once AT-guns and SPs are KO'ed move your Stummels and 3 PSWs with 75 mm guns forward in overwatch

positions and shoot up houses in and near OBJ. Then move in with the infantry in SPWs use short coverarc on SPWs so they dont open fire but stays down, expect high

casualties in the inf. platoons nothing to do about that. I had 28 min. when I attacked Stavelot it was enough of time. Used the Panther to hunt the SPs on the high ground

at the end of the mission took one SP out that way.

 

[Lille Fiskerby]

Sorry about the funny looking text, dont know what happened there.

[sandman2575]

Wow, very impressive. It's good to know that victory is possible, as you've proven.

One question -- after taking the Highway Screen OBJ, did you then assault Stavelot by the main road and take the other 4 OBJ in sequence? Or did you avoid the main road and drive some forces down by the pond / stream area, essentially skirting the town center?

I now think it was a big mistake for me to send the pioneer platoon with the 75mm 234/3s on an attempted flanking move through the woods of the hill overlooking Stavelot. They ultimately were able to do very little up there, and even following the paths the possibility of bogging --> immobilization is very high. Although I think sending your FO up there is essential.

[Erwin]

Well firstly, I wish people would say whether they played RT or WEGO as it makes a HUGE difference.  (Obviously it's MUCH easier to beat the AI playing RT.  You are basically playing a different game.)

Edited May 17, 2016 by Erwin

[Lille Fiskerby]

sandman2575, I did send my 3 recon platoons along the road leading into Stavelot and the pioneer platoon over the railway enbankment.

One of the recon platoons went right down to the stables buildings.

Erwin, I always play WEGO, sorry for not stating that at the beginning.

[Erwin]

In that case I am impressed!!   So there is hope to win Lifeline when I get to it. 

[Frederico]

Lille Fiskerby:  I hate to say, but I won it the first time I played it, major victory .

 

That is impressive! I won it on second try, but could not imagine winning on the first - I was totally stonked!

Let us know how you do on the next mission at Werbomont. It is also a challenging mission in a different way.

[Lille Fiskerby]

In the Werbomont mission I was really sorry I used all my 120 mm. Mortar rounds in the Storm on Stoumont mission, Mission 4 ! really, really missed them 

My infantry casualties was also very high in mission 4 over 130 casualties but I relied on my Panthers, lost 3 in mission 4, so they had to do a lot of support

and maneuver.

[Myles Keogh]

On ‎5‎/‎14‎/‎2016 at 10:50 PM, sandman2575 said:

So, has anyone actually gotten a victory on Lifeline?  It would be encouraging to know if it's possible.

I threw in the towel at the 16:00 mark. I had basically secured the 2nd objective, the entrance into Stavelot -- but there was *no way* I was going to have either the time or forces sufficient to capture *3 more*!!  My 'battering ram' approach worked about as well as expected, i.e. not very well at all. My Panther spearheading along the main road into Stavelot with my 2 KTigers taking parallel routes on either side of the road beyond the row-houses, with my mounted grenadiers following. It wasn't pretty.

As I knew it would be, Stavelot is Ambush Central. You take out the AT gun down the lane only to be blindsided by bazooka teams as you roll by.

Can this mission be beaten? I'm skeptical. The deck is so heavily stacked against you -- and the 1 hr. time limit is ridiculous.

I won a minor victory on my first play through.  (Playing WeGo Elite).

Frankly, I got pretty lazy on this scenario.  I started it weeks ago.  Played about 25 minutes and then shelved it until yesterday.

The scenario scoring being very generous is how I won a victory.  In the first twenty-five minutes, I took my time and played it seriously.  I managed to knock-out all but two of the M7s and secured the "screen" objective.

However, upon my return to it I just started screwing around.  It looked like such a tough nut to crack that I just didn't feel like putting much effort into winning it.  I pretty much left my infantry in the rear and advanced my armor assets (King Tigers, the Panther, and the Stummels) to shoot at whatever popped-up.  The Panther was pummeled by AT guns and immobilized, but that exposed those AT guns to counter-fire.  The Stummels were all damaged or lost to arty/mortar barrages, but the King Tigers roamed at will.  One Tiger was sent hunting along the RR tracks above the town and the other I sent into the town itself.  The two knocked-out a number of infantry and MG nests.  Realizing that I could capture another objective, I rushed a single platoon of panzergrenadiers into the town.  Before the scenario ended, I advanced a Tiger into the intersection objective just to deny its possession to the Americans.

When the scenario ended, I thought for sure it was going to be a loss and end the campaign.  However, I won a minor victory- the capture of just two objective locations and destroying just enough M7s and other American assets allowed me to squeak by to the next scenario.  Considering the troubles other players have had with it, I feel sort of bad that I won it on my first go around by only half-seriously playing it.  However, ignoring my infantry and other thin-skinned vehicles actually helped me win because it avoided them becoming easy points for the Americans.

 

Edited July 20, 2016 by Myles Keogh

[JyriErik]

On 14/05/2016 at 10:50 PM, sandman2575 said:

So, has anyone actually gotten a victory on Lifeline?  It would be encouraging to know if it's possible.

I threw in the towel at the 16:00 mark. I had basically secured the 2nd objective, the entrance into Stavelot -- but there was *no way* I was going to have either the time or forces sufficient to capture *3 more*!!  My 'battering ram' approach worked about as well as expected, i.e. not very well at all. My Panther spearheading along the main road into Stavelot with my 2 KTigers taking parallel routes on either side of the road beyond the row-houses, with my mounted grenadiers following. It wasn't pretty.

As I knew it would be, Stavelot is Ambush Central. You take out the AT gun down the lane only to be blindsided by bazooka teams as you roll by.

Can this mission be beaten? I'm skeptical. The deck is so heavily stacked against you -- and the 1 hr. time limit is ridiculous.

 

Got a total victory my first runthrough.  Based on the notes and terrain I decided to use an indirect approach.  KT's led the attack on the first ojective with 2 platoons of infantry for support, everything else went up the hill on the left flank and through the woods to the US artillery position.  Took most the time alloted, but wirh my Stummels, 75mm AC's and the Panther on the high ground in the American rear the Puma's and remaining infantry were able to cause enough damage to the rear area troops I achieved a total victory a few minutes to spare.

Jyri

[8piecebox]

Spoiler Alert (if by this time it's realistic to think there are tons of folks who haven't played this campaign yet):

 

 

During the Rushing Stavelot scenario (triggered when one occupies both Lodomez and Richard in the previous battle... aka "The Speed Option"), two different convoys of American trucks, armored cars, and jeeps appear on different roads leading into the town. I've unpacked this scenario (I believe version "C") and loaded it into the editor to see the details. From there, I learned that these two convoys have exit zones to the North and Northwest, but as I am a complete scenario/campaign editor novice, I was unable to determine whether the successful exit of these convoys constitutes a greater American presence in the following battle at Stoumont (or subsequent battles). What I'm trying to figure out is whether I need to absolutely prevent these buggers from getting away or if their inclusion is just for historic/atmosphere/FOW/confusion/surprise purposes.

The other thing the editor did not reveal (or I couldn't reveal it) was the logic behind the fuel dump (presuming this is in the vicinity of the ? marks displayed in the briefing). Not sure what I'm missing there. Or if taking the square plus all other OBJ abstracts the discovery of the fuel dump, which manifests itself in the next battle's briefing (in the campaign log). Or if taking the square triggers a new OBJ to appear on the map. Couldn't figure that out.

According to other posts on the subject, it doesn't matter whether you stop to find fuel or move on. I'd like to find out for myself.