Why ride the suicidal Hanomag halftrack when you can walk?

[Wodin]

I'm very surprised that soldier and vehicle scales should be out of kilter. I always thought BF was really ontop of things like this.

[user1000]

If you are tall you are screwed. If you duck you will be decently protected by flying shrapnel that has hit the ground outside the half-track, and indirect fire from far away that doesn't have enough energy to go through the vehicle armor.

Here are my HT tips:

-Make yourself a small target. Never turn your sides if you are under fire, point the engine at enemy fire all the time. If it's  an enemy MG, time to reverse out of there.

- Use it to transport or evacuate troops and artillery to or out of an area on map that needs them, stay away from high level combat zones with them. Use it to transport assault teams so they will not get as tired long distances. Transport mortar treams on the high ground edges of the map to hit different areas quickly.

- If you are using the half-track to shoot, try to completely hull down, this will make the machine gunner less likely to get hit and actually do his job better.

- Don't unload in front of a multi-story buildings! Better yet don't unload in front of any buildings

(even single story, but a tall field could help here).

- Move, fallback or advance and unload under a smoke screen.

- Never unload if you have no cover for the troops getting out. Unload behind tanks, walls, fences, or in tall fields.

 - Don't travel under buildings, in town streets or big hills with troops mounted. Enemy can fire above on all the troops. Operate it behind buildings not close to other buildings, but not on the outskirts of town either.

 

 

Edited March 17, 2016 by user1000

[A Canadian Cat]

I'm very surprised that soldier and vehicle scales should be out of kilter. I always thought BF was really ontop of things like this.

They are very on top of size of vehicles etc.  There is a vanishingly small chance that anything is wrong there and so far there as been no actual evidence that the size is off.  Seems like you took someone's earlier throw away comment as fact. Don't.  Either that or I am reading your post incorrectly.

[General Jack Ripper]

I'm very surprised that soldier and vehicle scales should be out of kilter. I always thought BF was really ontop of things like this.

It doesn't look like the scale is wrong so much as the posture and placement of the passengers is wrong. I.E. "Their butts aren't in the seats," so to speak.

[Wodin]

OK cool

[RockinHarry]

On 17.3.2016 at 10:54 PM, SLIM said:

It doesn't look like the scale is wrong so much as the posture and placement of the passengers is wrong. I.E. "Their butts aren't in the seats," so to speak.

That´s what probably comes closest to the fact, with regard to passenger stances and vulnerabilities. From my on map measuring (1x1m grid grass mod using for this), soldiers are likely in the range of beeing between 1,70 to 1,80m in height. Back seats for the 251 half track are correctly in the "down" position for the models, which would probably make for 5-10cm height differences for soldiers during travels in non combat environment.

http://www.pietvanhees.nl/251/backseat.htm

Also considering soldiers beeing fully geared, they most likely would lean more forward while seated, thus showing less profile above armor plates. Probably half the helmet would still be visible in RL, although one could assume if the halftrack was under fire, soldiers likely duck completely below the armored plates rim.

It´s now up to BFC willingness to adapt the animation files for that improved and more secure stance. Since the same animation files are shared among the OOB´s, the US soldiers would benefit as well when riding half tracks.

For those interested in some english translations for a number of original german training and tactics manuals, the following website would be of use. A translated version of the mentioned Panzergrenadier training manual (von Wehren, Gefechtsausbildung der Panzergrenadiere), can be found here as well (for purchase):

http://www.germanmanuals.com/REmanuals.html

 

[A Canadian Cat]

Just reporting in that I logged the issue with the seated animation. 

Make sure to set your expectations accordingly - though.  As in way lower than the portrayal as uber transports many people posting here seem to be hoping for.  I strongly suspect but have no real say in anything that this is too late in the game for a change in CMFB - so I wouldn't expect it.  I did not ask for German HTs to become uber transports (nor would BFC ever grant such a thing).  All of us gamers that are handling them in an a historical way should expect that they will continue to disappoint us.  None of this has anything to do with the gunner - they already got a stance change and frankly are pretty damn hard to kill from the front now at sensible distances. 

[RockinHarry]

Not an issue now important enough to delay CMFB release in any way. With this thread beeing at least the third lengthy one (last in 2013? and 1st in CMX1 times) on the half track and combat employment matter, I believe this won´t be the last one and parts of the community will remain divided on that. With regard to passenger stances I found my own (small) solution and if halftrack gunners get more of a survival chance in CMFB, remains to be seen.

[General Jack Ripper]

3 hours ago, IanL said:

Make sure to set your expectations accordingly - though.

The way I see it, just adjust the seated position of the passengers until they're actually in the bench seats, and call it a day.

[A Canadian Cat]

11 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

Not an issue now important enough to delay CMFB release in any way.

I agree.

11 hours ago, RockinHarry said:

 if halftrack gunners get more of a survival chance in CMFB, remains to be seen.

Just for clarification I was referring to the HT gunners stance that was adjusted awhile back. HT gunners are already working well IMHO.

9 hours ago, SLIM said:

The way I see it, just adjust the seated position of the passengers until they're actually in the bench seats, and call it a day.

My thoughts exactly.

[RockinHarry]

1 hour ago, IanL said:

Just for clarification I was referring to the HT gunners stance that was adjusted awhile back. HT gunners are already working well IMHO.

I don´t think the gunners stance to be the problem either. It´s the TacAI handling the situation, wasting every squad member for swapping the gunner until the last one got killed senselessly. I also believe that the relative spotting and independent decision making we so much enjoy in this game series is purposely broken in order to help (cheat) the AI punishing "gamey" player behaviors, when it comes to "uber" halftrack tactics. Maybe it´s not quite the truth, as the same odd TacAI behavior applies to pillboxes and their crews as well. Passenger handling (adding suppression effects, proper stances and reactive behavior) quite obviously needs an overhaul and the AI cheats (or call it AI balancing from game developers POV) removed.

[BLSTK]

In the meantime, we can still hope for a Battle Pack with "Uber Transports".

(There are some of us who believe in the Easter Bunny. Final Blitzkrieg, not so much.) 

[BLSTK]

My apologies for posting that in the CM:BN forum.

Man, that Bunny's making the rounds...

[George MC]

On 12/03/2016 at 9:10 AM, RockinHarry said:

As said, a slight silhouette/stance improvement for sitting psoldiers can be achieved by swapping 2 animation files. See screenshot here:

For testing purposes (kar98k-seated-knees-high.ani - renamed to - kar98k-seated.ani) - effects riflemen:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/t8si8k9hz7mnmb2/kar98k-seated.ani?dl=0

and (unarmed-seated-knees-highest.ani - renamed to - unarmed-seated.ani) - effects others, like the lMG men:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/rvtnrt03n3rylei/unarmed-seated.ani?dl=0

place into data/z

I've tried this out Harry and must say it does appear to reduce casualties amongst the guys being carried. I've ran SPW through ambushes and guys inside seem to do better than before. Gunner's still die but I am talking close range ambush by Soviet SMG armed squads. When using the SPW in a more measured way passengers do appear to do better with this wee mod. NOTE: This is only anecdotal I have not done any testing as such just playing with the units and this is how I perceive it.

[RockinHarry]

2 hours ago, George MC said:

I've tried this out Harry and must say it does appear to reduce casualties amongst the guys being carried. I've ran SPW through ambushes and guys inside seem to do better than before. Gunner's still die but I am talking close range ambush by Soviet SMG armed squads. When using the SPW in a more measured way passengers do appear to do better with this wee mod. NOTE: This is only anecdotal I have not done any testing as such just playing with the units and this is how I perceive it.

Hey George! Good to see you around, also knowing you´re quite interested and knowledegable in mechanized warfare and german tactics (Blowtorch Bn).  The swapped animation/stance files, while not doing really that much to increase protection for HT passengers, at least indicate what can be done. US HT passengers benefit even more and only show half the helmet above armor now. So this tweak at least can not be considered to create a german uber mod, as some might suspect.

The more serious problems with gunners and TacAI responses (friendly and enemy) remain unsolved though.

[A Canadian Cat]

14 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

The more serious problems with gunners and TacAI responses (friendly and enemy) remain unsolved though.

I am afraid to ask (not afraid of what you might say but of continuing this thread ) but just want to make sure no problems are left out. What problems are left unresolved in your opinion?

[George MC]

15 minutes ago, IanL said:

I am afraid to ask (not afraid of what you might say but of continuing this thread ) but just want to make sure no problems are left out. What problems are left unresolved in your opinion?

I don't want to speak for Harry but @IanLIMO I think the key one is that a SPW under fire and losing it's gunner will then have any passengers start to crew the MG. This can go on until all the passengers (one by one) meet their deaths. The SPW tends not to back up. If taking heavy fire you can go through a whole squad in a turn (assuming playing WEGO). However I think this is down to the morale state of the crew/passengers. Equally I've seen a SPW panic when the gunner is KIA first time. It's a difficult one to test as it's so context dependent.

In saying that I am reminded of Blackhawk Down as the Hummers make their dash through the streets and the top gunners in the HUMVEE are taken out one by one, only to be replaced by the passengers, who then in turn are take out. Maybe it's not that far off!

Edited March 25, 2016 by George MC

[George MC]

32 minutes ago, RockinHarry said:

Hey George! Good to see you around, also knowing you´re quite interested and knowledegable in mechanized warfare and german tactics (Blowtorch Bn).  The swapped animation/stance files, while not doing really that much to increase protection for HT passengers, at least indicate what can be done. US HT passengers benefit even more and only show half the helmet above armor now. So this tweak at least can not be considered to create a german uber mod, as some might suspect.

The more serious problems with gunners and TacAI responses (friendly and enemy) remain unsolved though.

Hi @RockinHarry Aye likewise  Good to see you resurfacing. Hey went to my first heavy metal gig the other week - saw Sabaton - brilliant gig and not like the punk gigs I used to go to. No-one spat or started fighting!  in Glasgow. 

Re your mod - nice work mate  - I agree it does not turn SPW into UberSPW but does allow you to use them a bit closer to the reality. I'd still keep well away from unsuppressed infantry!

Edited March 25, 2016 by George MC

[umlaut]

2 hours ago, George MC said:

@RockinHarrynot like the punk gigs I used to go to.

Wattie, is that you?

[George MC]

29 minutes ago, umlaut said:

Wattie, is that you?

Ha! An Exploited reference. I've seen em live loads of times. He used to hang around one of the record shops in Edinburgh. 

[A Canadian Cat]

3 hours ago, George MC said:

In saying that I am reminded of Blackhawk Down as the Hummers make their dash through the streets and the top gunners in the HUMVEE are taken out one by one, only to be replaced by the passengers, who then in turn are take out. Maybe it's not that far off!

Indeed. I see HT's backing up in fear pretty regularly though.

If the HT is buttoned up does that stop the on by one slaughter?

[umlaut]

37 minutes ago, George MC said:

Ha! An Exploited reference. I've seen em live loads of times. He used to hang around one of the record shops in Edinburgh. 

I played their first album til it was almost worn out when I was 14. Only got to see them live once, though - twenty-odd years later, when my old punk band had a short revival and played with them at a festival. I must admit that my enthusiam for their sound had waned considerably in the meantime.

[George MC]

9 hours ago, IanL said:

Indeed. I see HT's backing up in fear pretty regularly though.

If the HT is buttoned up does that stop the on by one slaughter?

Aye given normal morale and a surprise dead top gunner they tend to get out of dodge pretty quick. 

If its buttoned up - tbh not sure. That would need testing to be sure. Anecdotally I have seen what tends to be a higher rated morale and experience unit that when unbuttoned will tend to stay and duke it out, in which case, if taking heavy enough fire you'll start to lose the passengers one by one. But tbh I think that would need checking for sure. 

[George MC]

9 hours ago, umlaut said:

I played their first album til it was almost worn out when I was 14. Only got to see them live once, though - twenty-odd years later, when my old punk band had a short revival and played with them at a festival. I must admit that my enthusiam for their sound had waned considerably in the meantime.

Nice one Aye I must admit although I saw em loads they weren't my fav. Band I was with did a few gigs with them as well. However it was a short lived relationship. We were more the Crass side of punk. Anarchy, peace and freedom!

[RockinHarry]

18 hours ago, George MC said:

I don't want to speak for Harry but @IanLIMO I think the key one is that a SPW under fire and losing it's gunner will then have any passengers start to crew the MG. This can go on until all the passengers (one by one) meet their deaths. The SPW tends not to back up. If taking heavy fire you can go through a whole squad in a turn (assuming playing WEGO). However I think this is down to the morale state of the crew/passengers. Equally I've seen a SPW panic when the gunner is KIA first time. It's a difficult one to test as it's so context dependent.

In saying that I am reminded of Blackhawk Down as the Hummers make their dash through the streets and the top gunners in the HUMVEE are taken out one by one, only to be replaced by the passengers, who then in turn are take out. Maybe it's not that far off!

 

Yep, one the main issues that remain. I´ve seen HT drivers backing up often enough and with passengers in panicked state, the situation gets increasingly worse. If the HT driver decides to back up in an angle, thus uncovering the gunner to become vulnerable to fire from sides and panicked state not stopping the loaded squad to keep replacing the now completely exposed gunner, you could loose the whole squad in 1-2 minutes. Nothing a player could to about that, as long as panicked state carries over to next game turns.

 

18 hours ago, George MC said:

Hi @RockinHarry Aye likewise  Good to see you resurfacing. Hey went to my first heavy metal gig the other week - saw Sabaton - brilliant gig and not like the punk gigs I used to go to. No-one spat or started fighting!  in Glasgow. 

Re your mod - nice work mate  - I agree it does not turn SPW into UberSPW but does allow you to use them a bit closer to the reality. I'd still keep well away from unsuppressed infantry!

That surely was quite an intense evening, with all that long haired angry guys!  It´s been a long time since my last metal concert and even longer since I was on stage myself. I miss that.

Yep, rushing into unsuppressed infantry is quite a bad thing, as it was in reality, but not quite the way the game likes us to teach now.

Another animation file swap of mine gets Panzergrenadiers going to kneel stance when engaging from halftrack with rifles and SMG´s. Standing fully upright, like it is now, is just another invitation for getting the Grenadiers written off quickly. However, the animation file swap effectively removes the standing/firing stance entirely from the game in all the cases where i.e. the kar98k-aim-stand-ahead animation and related files is used. This is just a byproduct from the whole mod package, which effectively gets the majority of standing (not moving) upright stances replaced with kneel stances. The mod does the same thing for germans, US and CW forces (in CMBN). These are the affected animation/stance groups:

1. Aim stand to kneel

2. Bolt action stand to kneel

3. Buddy aid (already released as single mod at CMMODS III)

4. Cower (already released as single mod at CMMODS III)

5. Fire stand to kneel

6. HMG42 kneel to prone

7. Idle one stance lower

8. Reload one stance lower

9. Seat stance (the new one for half track passengers)

10. Transitions

11. Turn stand to turn kneel

A drop box link to the mod can be asked for via PM, for anyone interested.