Captured vehicles?

[Sequoia]

With the Final Blitzkrieg family BFC will bring us to the end of the war in the West. Captured vehicles were more a part of the Ostfront then the West but there were some. Adding captured vehicles would be relatively easy, but were there enough to be significant and make the effort worthwhile as opposed to other additions? I really don't know, perhaps someone out there can provide some information. If nothing else, did the Germans ever have a significant number of French vehicles in use in addition to the R-35s and Chars the CMBN Battlepack provided?

[stikkypixie]

Are you talking about vehicles that are not yet included in the game? Because right now it's relatively to add for example shermans to the German side or panthers to the allied side.

[Sequoia]

 I mean vehicles that could already be in the game for the other side  (say German) but add them as a special unit to the other sides  (i.e Allied) normal available list of units without doing the side switch routine and having to mod the skins. If for example you now used the editor to add the same vehicle to both sides in the same scenario they would all have the same skin and crew.

[MikeyD]

One US infantry force in '45, I can't recall which off the top of my head, became famous for 'repurposing' abandoned German halftracks and even Stugs. I've recently read a report of American roadblocks being guarded by a mix of US AT guns and German AT guns (PaK40s?) scrounged from salvage yards. I read a combat account where one German spearhead coming down a foggy road at night was lead by a US M5A1 light tank with its US markings (and followed by Panthers). Still, that doesn't sound like anything that couldn't wait for a 'vehicle pack' someday.

The biggie would be Germans in Italy and the Eastern Front assembling entire formation using Italian and Russia-made armor, not merely scrounging. Though even that might have to be pushed to a later 'vehicle pack'. It all depends on what else is being provided, whether the module is already over-topped with new vehicles.

[Michael Emrys]

The Germans used an incredible amount of captured equipment for the simple reason that they could not build enough themselves. In the Western campaign of 1940 and in Barbarossa entire Panzer divisions were largely equipped with Czech tanks. They pressed lots of French artillery as well as many types of vehicles into service. In 1941 they captured huge quantities of Soviet weaponry which they took into service, the 76mm gun for instance. This list is not comprehensive, but is just meant to hint at the scope of what was basically a regime of pirates.

Michael

[RockinHarry]

In 1944/45 germans surely put quite a lot of western allied vehicles into their posession and used them. The jeep was always a welcomed addition as would be trucks, if they found the fuel for them. Same for an occasional Sherman add on or M8 scout cars. I also remember that US Infantry division that got its nickname ....(do not recall the number) armored divison from its many german tanks (Stugs) in the inventory. Or a british artillery formation which was composed entirely of captured 88´s.

Not sure if I want anything like that added as future vehicle pack. Think I´d rather like seeing a wider assortment of trucks and minor vehicle types for germans. There were plenty of them and I´m not speaking of the booty types. Just having the Opel Blitz and some Krupp Protze gets boring over time and it doesn´t reflect reality that well. Also the various unarmored SdKfz types (7,10,11...) used for towing guns are yet missing.

[LukeFF]

Think I´d rather like seeing a wider assortment of trucks and minor vehicle types for germans. There were plenty of them and I´m not speaking of the booty types. Just having the Opel Blitz and some Krupp Protze gets boring over time and it doesn´t reflect reality that well. 

Of all things to add to the game, you want more...trucks?  

Ooooooookay....

[Michael Emrys]

I also remember that US Infantry division that got its nickname ....(do not recall the number) armored divison from its many german tanks (Stugs) in the inventory. Or a british artillery formation which was composed entirely of captured 88´s.

The Allies also were not shy about borrowing from each other. As one of many possible examples, in the fall-winter of 1944-45 the US Army formed up several artillery battalions armed with British 25 pdrs. Had something to low stocks of ammo for their own guns, I've heard.

Michael

[RockinHarry]

Of all things to add to the game, you want more...trucks?  

Ooooooookay....

Just speaking of vehicles for a possible vehicle pack and in this case just some the german stuff. Rather like to see some the mentioned trucks and towing vehicles than i.e a Maus, Panther F and other the never built and employed german fantasy toys.  Captured vehicles...okay...would be not a priority on my personal wishlist though.

[RockinHarry]

Just found that mentioned US Division with that many german captured stuff in use. It was the US 83rd Infantry Division "Rag Tag Circus" or "83rd Armored Division" as division members prefered. I remembered this one beeing part of a SL - Anvil of Victory scenario #306 (Rag Tag Circus). 

[Kieme(ITA)]

If the blue-on-blue option is still available it should be possible for scenario makers to add a Sherman or any other unit to the German side, maybe using a [tag] mod with a balkenkreutz and such...

[kohlenklau]

@Kieme(ITA)  But then they show up with US crews in the beutepanzer shermans, right?

Edited January 31, 2016 by kohlenklau

[Kieme(ITA)]

Unfortunately they will, unless you manage to swap the models for the vehicle crew, but if they fight US armor they will share the german crew.

All in all we can only try some gimmicky it's up to BFC to add such kind of things in a correct manner.

[nik mond]

Nothing wrong with US tank crews wearing German uniforms in German tanks if you are doing a Kelly's heroes scenario.

[Sequoia]

Of all things to add to the game, you want more...trucks?  

Ooooooookay....

I also think more softskinned vehicles such as Horschs, Beeps, captured French trucks, and of course the always popular Schwimmwagen, not to mention the Seep, would add to the game; plus the various sdkfz's mentions. RH didn't say it was the ONE thing he would like to see added.

[Michael Emrys]

I'm holding out for weapons carriers.

Michael

[MarkEzra]

It would be fun to have an Individual Vehicle designation for captured vehicles.

[snake_eye]

Use of captured vehicles and or made in overtaken countries by the Germans was a necessity for them to overcome their losses and difficulties to replace them despite the huge effort they made to increase their  fabrication.

An amazing thing I remember when I was in my late teens while looking at the pictures my father had taken in the ETO and specially in Normandy was the story of a kettenkrad seen on one of them.

They had captured it when it was found abandoned on the side of a road. Since it was a handy small tracked vehicle, specially to move off road with its trailer loaded with mines and or other explosives, Since my father was an Engineer officer having had Intelligence training and as such he was able to retain for his specialits team the kettenkrad. However they were in trouble for its maintenance, so they managed to interrogate a captured German mechanic on the basis that  they needed to get some intelligence data from him.

That is how, they got the prisoner put in charge of the vehicle maintenance. They smuggle him all the way to Reims and he managed to keep the kettenkrad running. Unfortunately in Reims other MP’s discovered the Jerry among them and there was no way this time to have it stay anymore with them. In the next days, the kettenkrad broke down and they had to find another way to move the mines for their testing in the fields.

So if a Kettenkrad is on the list i buy it

 

 

[LukeFF]

RH didn't say it was the ONE thing he would like to see added.

And I never said that was the only thing he was asking for.

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

It would be fun to have an Individual Vehicle designation for captured vehicles.

This for sure.  Occasionally adding a captured Sherman or M8 to a German formation during the Bulge counter-offensive would be highly historical.  Also I believe the US Army at some point established a few units with captured German artillery tubes owing to a shortage of 105 and 155 MM rounds in theater.  Not essential by any stretch of the imagination, but having provisional artillery batteries would be cool.  

I'd also like it if there was some option for a variable amount of captured small arms.  I don't know how often the Germans employed US/UK weapons (I mean, they obviously stuffed Volkstrum units with captured French/Italian/etc guns but that's different), but I've seen at least some history showing US units operating with panzerfausts, or MP-40s and the like*.  

If it's too regular (like if you set unit quality to "high" a rifle squad will have 2 MP-40s and 6 panzerfausts every.time.) then it'll be suck, but as a random chance that your little 101st pixeltruppen have acquired an MG42 to help even the odds at Bastonge, or for some reason the commander of one of your M4A4E8s looks like Brad Pitt and is blazing away at Nazis with an STG44 from the hatch, it'd be a neat touch.  

*Same deal with excessive amounts of automatic weapons.  It seems like the longer a unit was in combat, the higher the BAR to Soldier rate went.  Having it be strictly consistent would be odd because again, it's a unit scavenging up additional weapons, but maybe the higher the unit skill, the more robust the weapons selection, like a regular unit would merely have the authorized weapons, while an elite unit has somehow snagged up an extra BAR and a M1919A6, a few extra SMGs and three panzerfausts

[Michael Emrys]

However they were in trouble for its maintenance, so they managed to interrogate a captured German mechanic on the basis that  they needed to get some intelligence data from him. That is how, they got the prisoner put in charge of the vehicle maintenance.

Now that is what I call creative improvisation!

Michael

[MikeyD]

One thing CM doesn't really represent is how freakin' inconvenient Panzerfaust was to lug around. Scampering about trying to fire your personal weapon with a faust tucked under your arm (there were no shoulder straps). If a GI picks up a Faust laying around the rifle would have to be slung over the shoulder because you can't carry both.

Rather reminds me of CMSF Marines M32 multiple grenade launcher. BFC launched the Marine module just as the weapon was being fielded. It turned out, though, that the Marines quickly soured on the weapon. It took a rifleman out of the platoon and wasn't very much more effective than M203 grenade launcher attached to an M16. So (last I heard) M32 reverted to 'specialist weapon' that nobody in the platoon actually carries but could be retrieved if needed.

That being said, once we hit Germany and the allies are coming across vast stockpiles of Fausts I wouldn't mind one of two showing up as very rare allied 'acquireables' in jeeps and trucks. I don't think inf platoons should be issued' em, though, 

[panzersaurkrautwerfer]

That being said, once we hit Germany and the allies are coming across vast stockpiles of Fausts I wouldn't mind one of two showing up as very rare allied 'acquireables' in jeeps and trucks. I don't think inf platoons should be issued' em, though,  

Sounds about right to me.  I just remember in the old Close Combat IV game that a few of the US formations had infantry squads with Panzerfausts, always struck me as weird until some later readings indicated it was not an entirely unheard of act.  I do think the acquirable thing makes the most sense for actually implementing them however.  

[Sublime]

Well of course there is the fact cited repeatedly on these boards that the 82nd AB came across a huge faust stockpile and used them the rest of the war.

Also Germans using US tanks wouldnt be ahistorical for the Bulge. Theres over ten references to it in a Time for Trumpets nevermind stories that just werent put in the book.

[Tempestzzzz]

Candidate for a vehicle pack

Edited February 2, 2016 by Tempestzzzz