weapon2010 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Can anyone explain why my m10 would spot the tiger and then let nine seconds go by without shooting, and then gets killed?I turned trees off, but the trees are very light. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 (edited) Do you have a save game file? We need the file from before this happened so the turn can be replayed. Edited December 7, 2015 by Vanir Ausf B 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 (edited) Well, 9 Seconds is a Blink of an Eye in RL WWII...In CM, thou, I'm surprised your M1...err, mean M18 didn't shoot after 1 sec of spotting the Tiger. Joe Edited December 7, 2015 by JoMc67 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 JoeAre you being sarcastic?And yes Vanir I have the file 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Ehh, don't mind me...Carry-On. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 Don't know if it is true but the gunner has to adjust a lot of instruments before the first shell leaves after that it should fire quicker. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
General Jack Ripper Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 First of all, that's not an M-10, secondly, just because one member of the crew can see the enemy tank, doesn't mean the gunner can shoot it.The most likely explanation is the Tank Commander spotted the enemy, but the Gunner didn't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
user1000 Posted December 7, 2015 Share Posted December 7, 2015 I just noticed this. Why do the tankers have GI helmets on and not tanker helmets? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted December 7, 2015 Author Share Posted December 7, 2015 im not minding you, what timeframe do you think is reasonable for a vet m18 to fire at a pointblank tiger at 250m, nine seconds went buy, they spotted the tiger first, unless its simulating that it had an he shell loaded, that being said, would not most tank commanders, regardless of it being a tank hunter or not, want ap "in the gun"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 And yes Vanir I have the fileCan you post it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted December 8, 2015 Author Share Posted December 8, 2015 can I just send it to you? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MikeyD Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I remember in CMRT the darned T34-76 with two man turret. The commander did double duty as gunner. He'd be topside, spot a target, drop down to the gunner's seat, loose the target, then pop topside again and the spot it again. Then repeat the same thing over again. Frustrating as hell but it shows the gunner's situational awareness is markedly inferior to the commander. I don't know if that's what's happening here but its not unlikely. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 can I just send it to you?Check your messages. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bulletpoint Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 The tiger could be outside the Armour Target Arc - difficult to see from the tank's perspective. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 Could it be "Armor Arc confusion"? Depending on circumstances and crew quality, my armor crews will hesitate and sometimes never shoot the whole turn when there is more than one AFV in the arc, like you have here (another vehicle moves into the Arc from the left). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 You should really turn trees on, for any such examples. What means very light trees? The Tiger was moving and a single tree or anything between the two tanks could have the M10 tank crew prevented to spot and shoot at the Tiger the deciding 2-3 seconds sooner. Foliage includes high and low bushes and trees have their height as well, with that orchard type oftenly blocking LOS/LOF due to branches hanging low. I do not see anything out of the ordinary from that example and the Tiger was lucky that it through movement obviously found the right place and time to spot and shoot first. ....FUBAR´ed 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holman Posted December 8, 2015 Share Posted December 8, 2015 I think Slim probably got it: the TC spotted the tank (or maybe even the radio operator spotted it), but 9 seconds wasn't enough time for the gunner to spot it, lay the gun on target, and fire.This happens. If it happens all the time, it's a problem. If it happens every now and then, it's realistic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 I got the save file from Weapon. It's actually the same file as seen in the OP but since this is a PBEM the previous file wouldn't do any good without his opponent's password anyways.It's hard to say exactly what happened but it does seem likely that marginal LOS though trees is the approximate cause. Earlier in the same turn the M18 spots the Tiger moving on two occasions and immediately goes into the firing sequence but the Tiger moves out of LOS before the shot is fired, so there does not seem to be anything wrong with the M18.If you set the camera at view level 2 and place it at the front of the turret on both vehicles then zoom in a little you can see how marginal the lines of sight are. Again, hard to say exactly what happened. Maybe the M18 driver had LOS but the gunner did not. My inclination is to file this in the "**** happens in war" category rather than as a bug.LOS from M18 to TigerLOS From Tiger to M18 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Looks like the mentioned orchard type trees which are more likely to block LOS/LOF, at least for an unbuttoned commander, the higher a tank is. Just recently I even had this "problem" with Stugs, which are considerably lower.Can´t remember ATM, but do tank gunners also show "waiting", when they just lost LOS to the target, while beeing in the "aiming" process, like infantry? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Looks like the mentioned orchard type trees which are more likely to block LOS/LOF, at least for an unbuttoned commander, the higher a tank is. Just recently I even had this "problem" with Stugs, which are considerably lower.Another possibly complicating factor is that the M18 was parked directly on the intersection of 4 action spots. I don't know if the game allows vehicle crews to be in different action spots but if so that could also explain why some crew had LOS and others did not.Can´t remember ATM, but do tank gunners also show "waiting", when they just lost LOS to the target, while beeing in the "aiming" process, like infantry?I don't think so. They did not in this case. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Another possibly complicating factor is that the M18 was parked directly on the intersection of 4 action spots. I don't know if the game allows vehicle crews to be in different action spots but if so that could also explain why some crew had LOS and others did not.I don't think so. They did not in this case.Hm....interesting idea. From what I understand of the game engine, individual crew members spot from individual positions in the tank (when that capability exists) from their 3D eye positions, or possibly optical equipment (periscopes). Actually exact position of the vehicle shouldn´t be of concern with regard to action spots, which IMO have more relevance with individual soldiers and team member deployments. But who knows...Other thing that comes into mind is a tank guns optics. Some are better suited for tracking at medium to long ranges, some for accurate snipping (small field of view) and anything between. I have no idea about an M18 tank gun optics, yet it seems at a range of 250m and with trees in the immediate field of view, it could pose some spotting and tracking problems for the gunner maybe. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RockinHarry Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 The M18 optics in CMAK are rated as "standard", medium quality and magnification. Good field of view. Doesn´t look to be like a problem, if optics in CMX2 are internally rated the same.The M18 gunner might also have thought that he couldn´t likely penetrate and seriously damage the Tiger, since it was moving at an odd angle (1 o´clock heading), thus increasing ricochet and armor thickness and thus held fire. I think I´ve seen some this behavior on various occasions. The M18 crew appears to be "veteran", so the gunner might have known better? Maybe a regular or green had gotten the shot off, with precarious results. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
weapon2010 Posted December 9, 2015 Author Share Posted December 9, 2015 Vanir, thanks for taking a look at the file, its great to hear different opinions and getting a different set of eyes on the situation, I never jump to the "bug conclusion" quickly as so many do, and I never thought this was a bug, just that it was an odd behavior that I have not seen prior and wanted an explanation, I can only imagine the panic in the tank in real life as someone in the crew spots the Tiger but the gunner cant see it and cant get the information to the gunner correctly.So maybe this is the scenario:Crew member/Commander, "Tiger dead ahead!250m!"Gunner, "I cant spot him, where the **** is the bastard?"Crew member/Commander, " 12 oclock dam it!!Hurry , Hurry"Gunner, "No No , I don't see him!!"Dead How great would it be to actually hear these exchanges going on in the tank?negative or positive?If Im the commander in that situation, as soon as I hear the gunner is struggling to spot, Im giving the order to immediate reverse, might not have saved him.Also what is the default ammo loaded into the gun?ap or he? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JoMac Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 Actually, from the two Screen shots it appears that the Tiger should have more of a problem spotting the M18, then the other way around.Joe 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted December 9, 2015 Share Posted December 9, 2015 So what is the default ammo loaded into the gun?ap or he?it is magically what ever round is needed. They do it for ease of game play. That way the AI or the humans do not need to decide what round to have in the breach. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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