Noob questions

[Stamos22]

Hello all,

 

I am new to Combat Mission and have been consuming as much information as I can. I've watched all the armchair general videos, some other tutorial vids, and plenty of AARs. It's amazing the resources available, and I want to thank everyone who has been producing content because it's really helped me wrap my head around the game. These resources have provided me with lots of tips on how to use the ui/game mechanics, and also how to use my units effectively. I've played lots of rts game/strategy games, but my knowledge of proper combined arms tactics etc has always been limited to some light reading and movies, so this has been a big learning experience.

 

What I'd like to do with this thread is create a place where I (and other new players) can ask random small questions without flooding the board with new topics.

Here is my first round! Thanks for any help in advance!

 

1. If a unit is given a firing arc, and is fired on, will they shoot back or are they still restricted to their arc?

2. I'm still trying to figure out the most effective way to use snipers. Right now I find myself using them as spotters/scouts more than anything. This probably isn't a bad way to use them, but I'm not really using them to actually kill any enemy units because I worry about them being spotted. Is this a concern? Or can their range keep them hidden while shooting?

3. Armor spotting: If I'm using an armored unit, I'm currently using my infantry to sweep ahead of them (scout teams etc) to spot ambushes and units. If the infantry spots these units but my tanks can't see the units what are my options? I know I can open the hatch to improve their spotting. Can I just targeted fire at the area that my infantry spotted the enemy? or is there a better way to do this?

 

Thanks for the help, I'm sure I will remember more questions I've thought of and post them later.

[Badger73]

Take a look at these posts and see if they help.  Welcome to CMBN.  Good luck and good gaming!

Edited October 8, 2015 by Badger73
typo's

[Warts 'n' all]

Most of your questions have been dealt with in various threads over the years. And you can use "Search" to find any topic that you are interested in. And, you will find as wide a variety of answers as their are players of the game. So my answers are only my own opinion and not everyone will agree.

1. Yes, your troops will fire outside of an arc if they don't cower from the incoming fire. You will also from time to time notice that not all members of a "Squad" engage the same target. For example, if an enemy vehicle is being escorted by infantry some of your men will fire at the vehicle whilst some engage the infantry. 

2. When attacking I use them as an extra scout team. Whilst playing as the defender I try and find a fairly well concealed spot for them in the hope that they will pick off enemy officers or tank commanders.

3. You can target an area as you describe. It might panic the enemy troops giving your infantry an easier target. And maybe, even kill or suppress enemy units near to those that your infantry have eye contact with.

 

[Stamos22]

Thank you for the quick replies and the links! I will read them all this evening.

[Bud Backer]

Welcome, Stamos (and fellow countryman!)

For information on how do handle tactics - real life, but applicable to the game - I would strongly suggest going to Bil Hardenberger's Combat Mission Tactical Problems Blog. It covers the real life tactics used by the military, and then puts it into game terms for maximum benefit. 

The Beta AARs that you will find for each game are an excellent (and fun) way to read how the top players (who are often also military folks) do stuff. 

The manuals - depending on the game - are two flavours. One is specific to the game (EG: Combat Mission Battle for Normandy Manual) and the second is the Engine Manual which applies to all the CM games. There is often a lot of overlap, but there is also unique info in each and they are both quite useful.

Of course, this forum is a great source if ideas and knowledge. Don't be shy to ask, and try out the search engine too, it can save you waiting for replies. 

When you feel ready - and that doesn't mean an expert - try PBEM games. While many play only against the AI, many others find it such a richer experience that its worth it. There are no shortage of newer or less experienced players that you can find people to play who will not turn it into a slaughter. 

Good luck and have fun. 

[A Canadian Cat]

Looks like you have some answers and some more to read.  +1 on the Tactical Problems Blog that is excellent stuff.  Some of those threads are pretty good too.  But not all - you will no doubt figure out yourself if you are getting value out of a thread.  I am going to give my answers to your specific questions since I do not agree 100% with @Warts 'n' all - more points of view hopefully will be helpful

1. If a unit is given a firing arc, and is fired on, will they shoot back or are they still restricted to their arc?

Maybe and maybe not. By default a unit will stick to its cover arc.  At times they will break it and ignore it but those times are hard to predict.  Therefore if you set an arc expect it to be obeyed 100% even when you really wish they would not.  If your men take fire they might break the order but probably will not.  If they take casualties they might break the order but probably not.  If the get really beat up then they will break the order but they will also not be in very good shape either.  The more motivated your men are the more likely they are to keep to the arc.

My default is to not use cover arcs.  The most common occasion I do is for scouts and FOs that I do not want to be shooting.  I give them a short circular cover arc so they can defend themselves if really bad things happen.  I might also give a cover armour arc to an AT asset or my own tank - when I do that it will be a circular arc that covers the entire map (or to their max range for infantry AT assets).  You read that right - the entire map.  One other special case is to have a tank poke around a corner or other protection at an angle and then have the turret face forward.  In that case the tank will get a 180degree cover arc that extends to cover all of the map in front.  One thing I am experimenting with is circular cover arcs for platoon HQ units to help keep their platoons in C2.  Just click on the HQ and you can quickly see if their squads are close enough or not.

Like I said above expect your arc to be obeyed.  Which means if you have some narrow arc set expect the enemy to drive around in plain view outside the arc without challenge and move up and take out your defenders.  That is why my default is no arcs.

 

2. I'm still trying to figure out the most effective way to use snipers. Right now I find myself using them as spotters/scouts more than anything. This probably isn't a bad way to use them, but I'm not really using them to actually kill any enemy units because I worry about them being spotted. Is this a concern? Or can their range keep them hidden while shooting?

Yeah, I don't do that at all.

On defense I like to find them a couple of spots with good vantage points over likely areas the enemy are going to be coming.  I make sure other defensive units are *not* near them. I do not want MGs that attract fire to be drawing any attention to the snipers.  Then I just leave them to do their work.  Occasionally I'll get them to hide in cover for a while and then go back or switch positions.  I do not remember the last time I gave a sniper team a target order.  I just let them work.

On the attack I use them less.  Having them handy but back a bit seems to work.  If they are with the platoon HQs then they are not usually in the line of fire but are close to the action.  If I see an opportunity I'll move them up to a part of the line that is not currently taking fire but has a view of some enemy that are holding me up.  Then I just let them do their thing.

 

3. Armor spotting: If I'm using an armored unit, I'm currently using my infantry to sweep ahead of them (scout teams etc) to spot ambushes and units. If the infantry spots these units but my tanks can't see the units what are my options? I know I can open the hatch to improve their spotting. Can I just targeted fire at the area that my infantry spotted the enemy? or is there a better way to do this?

That sounds pretty much OK to me.

[womble]

So my answers are only my own opinion and not everyone will agree.

 

And then there are some things that are just facts...

1. Yes, your troops will fire outside of an arc if they don't cower from the incoming fire.

This is a stretching of facts wayyy outside the "general application". Yes, it's possible that your men will ignore the Target Arc they've been given, but this will only happen if they feel sufficiently threatened and the threat is sufficiently close to the edges of their arc. I've had pTruppen ignore their arc when they haven't even been fired on yet, just because the edge of their TA was only metres from a machine gun they felt was a threat. But by the same token if you give your troops very short arcs and they're fired on from far away, they will, if they are of Normal or better motivation, usually hold their fire. And if you give a Fanatic element a TA, they won't ignore it except in extremis, when any lesser men would probably have broken and run for it. This feature is often used to keep targets from firing back in test situations. Generally, the higher the Motivation soft factor of the element, the less likely they are to disregard it, and the lower their Motivation, the more likely they are to ignore your restrictions. Most of the time, though, if a TAs gets cancelled it's for "self-preservation" purposes, and the unit's about to Panic or be Shaken anyway, which means all orders get dropped anyway.

[Warts 'n' all]

I'd tend to agree 100% with everything that Ian L says. 

[Erwin]

IanL:  What is the difference between setting a circular arc that covers the entire map and no arc at all?

[womble]

Setting a "whole map" TA has two applications that I can immediately think of:

• to cancel a previous TA without changing the facing of the unit. You could use a Face order, but if you have that order just slightly off, it can, sometimes lead to teams of unsplit squads rearranging themselves (possibly inappropriately) or even a tank deciding that putting its hull along the Face axis is more important than bringing its gun to bear. This is a marginal case, though. The Face command would usually suffice.
• more often, the whole map TA is an Armour TA. With the obvious utility that gives over "fire at will" [lack of] orders.

[A Canadian Cat]

IanL:  What is the difference between setting a circular arc that covers the entire map and no arc at all?

As @womble mentioned a cover armour arc that covers the entire map is what I us for AT guns much of the time. A regular cover arc that covers the entire map would not be different from having no arc. 

[RockinHarry]

As @womble mentioned a cover armour arc that covers the entire map is what I us for AT guns much of the time. A regular cover arc that covers the entire map would not be different from having no arc. 

Hm...not quite from my experience. A large distance CA something like "enforces" or encourages a unit to engage targets at far ranges, where it would do not, when entirely left on its own (no CA at all). I.e if I want a HMG need to reach far out, I usually give it a CA of about 1500m, which gets it start shooting at approximately 1200-1300m (the range where it can actually spot enemies with Binocs). With no CA setting it would more likely to start engaging targets at ranges of ~1000m and below. Off course there´s a couple of more variables involved, but if you need to exploit a units long range hitting power, even with reduced accuracy, then a long range CA will help. Otherwise the TacAI more likely will just take general hit chances/accuracy into account and only starts shooting if the enemy comes towards a certain treshold (range/to hit chance combo).

[Erwin]

"I usually give it a CA of about 1500m, which gets it start shooting at approximately 1200-1300m (the range where it can actually spot enemies with Binocs). With no CA setting it would more likely to start engaging targets at ranges of ~1000m and below."

Interesting, but is that phenomenon verified by tests?

[RockinHarry]

"I usually give it a CA of about 1500m, which gets it start shooting at approximately 1200-1300m (the range where it can actually spot enemies with Binocs). With no CA setting it would more likely to start engaging targets at ranges of ~1000m and below."

Interesting, but is that phenomenon verified by tests?

Any tests beside my own? Good question. I did very intensively test the mentioned situation (HMG) and the results were as reported. If that applies to all and any type units, I can´t tell. But since that time I treat arcs as "if possible (visible & targetable), engange enemy up to range as set by the arc". More sort of a command and less sort of an option. No arcs means the TacAI is completely left to its own judgements, dependent upon soft factors and other variables. The TacAI might figure that due to its abilities (soft factors) and terrain, ect. it ain´t worth to engage a target with reasonable amount of ammo and hit chances, while an arc might tell it, engage anyway and do what you´re told to, similar to the (direct) target command. Unless someone proofs something different, I take this as a base for using arcs generally. 

[Vanir Ausf B]

Also, Covered Arc + Hide = Ambush command. 

[Erwin]

"Covered Arc + Hide = Ambush command."

While that worked in CM1 IIRC in CM2 ordering a HIDE actually means the troops are cowering in the dirt with little positional awareness.  I remember enemy troops could literally walk on top of one's men on HIDE and shoot em easily.  Has that been tweaked in order to make ambushes like this work?

[womble]

While I think VAB is overstating the case a little, recent testing has shown that Hide and TAs work well in combination as an ambush command in some circumstances. There is a lot of anecdotal evidence that there are also many cases where using Hide as part of an ambush setup is suboptimal as Erwin says. More work needs to be done to find out the parameters within which Hide is useful and non-prejudicial to the springing of an ambush.

[Erwin]

The other problem with HIDE is that sound is not taken into account - your troops seem to be deaf.  So, you could have an AT team on one side of a low wall on HIDE, while an enemy tank sits helplessly a couple of meters away on the other side.  Usually, the ambush team will do nothing.  That's not 100% as I have seen a team unhide and take out a tank.  While that is a delicious moment, it is very rare in my gaming experience.  Being able to set up simple ambushes is the #3 feature I miss from CM1.

[womble]

I think low walls are particularly poor candidates for Hide-ing behind if you want to use Hide to ambush something, since the only time the unit will spot anything is if someone pokes their head higher than the wall to spot. My feeling is that if the ground between the Hide-ing troops is unobstructed, it'll work best. Troops won't take any action on their own in response to tentative contacts; the cases where they've popped up from behind the wall will, I'd surmise, be ones where a head has popped up and spotted the nearby armour.

Edited October 10, 2015 by womble

[Erwin]

My point is that in the game, units are deaf, and don't "understand" how to ambush - unlike the admittedly simpler system in CM1 which, in this example, gives better verisimilitude.  Not a problem most of the time.  But, Ambush is an example where the game feels unrealistic.

[womble]

They're not deaf. That "tentative contact" is probably because of the sound. But you're right, they don't "understand" how to ambush because they will never unHide in order to pounce on a "?" icon, so will never initiate contact with something they haven't Spotted. Comparisons with x1 are possibly invidious, since the AS are so different in size and the terrain so much less detailed in the older game. A tank "in the next AS" in x1 could be 3AS away in x2, so the infantry barely even need to Hide if they're in buildings. Trying to make the statement "Hide + TA in x2 == Ambush in x1" always true is ignoring the fact that "TA in x2 == Ambush in x1" is also, and more often (IME), true.

The commands do what they do. Using them in combination provides more options than you had in x1. Isn't that better?

[A Canadian Cat]

I tend to set my ambushes up with the ambushing troops hiding and another trigger team not hiding but in good concealment with visibility to the kill zone. That way if the hiding troops don't notice the enemy I can unhide them as soon as possible. 

Bottom line if you give a hide order expect those troops to notice nothing. They might notice something but don't expect it. 

[para]

As womble said hiding troops are not deaf. If they hear an engine sound they should at least take a peak. If its and enemy then they should attack it. If they have the correct weapons.

[MikeyD]

What your troops will do under a given circumstance is heavily dependent on 'soft' factors. Green troops out of command contact will behave very differently from highly motivated elite troops with a firm chain of command.

[A Canadian Cat]

If they hear an engine sound they should at least take a peak.

OK I'm talking about how the game actually works right now. What you are talking about  is a change in behavior that you want.

Both which are fine...