SLIM vs Ithikial DAR (Ithikial Stay Out!)

[General Jack Ripper]

I'm still waiting on the final turn to come back to post some screenshots and analysis.

[AlexUK]

Really enjoyed this! Thank you, and well played.

[zinzan]

Thanks to both of you for this, good and interesting game - i also look forward to both your thoughts on how well your initial plans worked out.

[Heinrich505]

Slim and Ithikial,

  Really great action.  +1 to zinzan.  Thanks so much for putting this on for us.  It was great following the battle.  Thanks for posting.

Heinrich505

[Ithikial_AU]

I'm still waiting on the final turn to come back to post some screenshots and analysis.

Oh whoops! Check now.

[General Jack Ripper]

[General Jack Ripper]

Oh whoops! Check now.

I got it, thanks.

I'll post some screenshots and some final analysis later. I want to talk about my "Inchworm" attack.

[General Jack Ripper]

Thanks to both of you for this, good and interesting game - i also look forward to both your thoughts on how well your initial plans worked out.

Well that one is very simple, just compare the diagram for my initial plan:

With this screenshot showing my dispositions at the end of the battle:

and you can see I stuck fairly close to my initial plan of operations. The only major deviation was crossing the Road Bridge VP instead of denying it to Ithikial. That was simply a reaction to a perceived opportunity, using the forces already allocated for the DENY objective. One other deviation, I never did destroy that Hotel.

I'll post more later, I need to drink some coffee first.

[General Jack Ripper]

Upon further review, that WASN'T a short Mortar round that caused casualties on the final turn, it was my JagdPanzer SHOOTING MY OWN MEN! I take back every nice thing I ever said about him, the prick!

[General Jack Ripper]

Okay, some post battle analysis. Now that I have my coffee, I'm ready to start writing. This analysis will cover every single thing I noticed, both from my side as well as Ithikial's side. This AAR Thread has become rather popular, so I figured I'd post some general advice, and specific observations for the benefit of the inexperienced Combat Mission player. If you haven't already read the thread, and watched both mine and Ithikial's videos, you should do that first, because there are spoilers after this sentence.

• Ithikial did not set the 'soft factors' for his units when purchasing them. Every option on the purchasing screen was set to 'Typical', this resulted in a mixed bag of Leadership, Motivation, and Experience. The result of this oversight was a lack of predictable performance from his troops. Some squads performed well, while others performed poorly. In the case of 4 Platoon in the town, the entire platoon folded as soon as it made contact.
• I was not aware the battle was set to a Meeting Engagement until after I had purchased my troops. I went into my force purchase with the mindset of attacking an entrenched enemy position located in and around the Town in the center of the map. My purchase of Panzergrenadiers was the result of expecting protracted house-to-house fighting. The result of this was spending a lot of time dealing with troop fatigue, which slowed the rate of my attack, making it more predictable. Although Ithikial did a perfect job identifying my axis of advance and predicting my likely approach route.
• My tanks sole purpose for existing was to hunt down and destroy enemy tanks. I noticed Ithikial was surprised when my Panther ran over to the Town as quickly as it did, but the reason for that was simply the objective of tank hunting. Anywhere I spotted Ithikial's tanks, I took actions to draw them into a fight and destroy them. Shooting up infantry was secondary to that objective.
• The available LOS from the Chateau hill was nonexistent. The only thing I could see was the Hotel. A careful terrain survey would have revealed this flaw, however, I didn't notice it until after I had positioned all of my heavy weapons.
• When using on-map mortars, it's very important to keep them attached to their native units for the best C2 connections. It might have been better to delete the mortar platoons from the infantry companies, and attach independent mortar teams directly to the Battalion HQ.
• I had no idea how many Shermans I would be facing, but I'm a bit surprised Ithikial didn't throw all six of them at my three tanks simultaneously. Sacrificing the 75mm Shermans to allow the 17pdrs to spot and shoot my tanks is a valid tactic. Once all of my tanks are destroyed, victory is mostly guaranteed. That's why I went into this battle with the sole objective of using my tanks to hunt Ithikial's tanks. The commitment of the Shermans in a piecemeal fashion allowed me to pick them off one at a time.
• Incoming fire does not mean you have been detected. Area fire can be used as part of a larger fire plan to deny an area to the enemy. Case in point, the Hotel buildings. Machinegun fire made sure no one was in the buildings, and had some suppressive effect until my smoke mission arrived.
• One quick comment, my 75mm AT Gun couldn't actually see the area Ithikial thought it could. Announcing it's presence with a quick area fire mission provided a small psychological edge over my opponent. He's certainly not going to advance tanks through an area he thinks is covered by anti-tank weaponry. Despite the fact my Antitank Gun did absolutely nothing useful the entire match, if he delayed the deployment of tanks for even a few minutes, it was worth it.
• During my deployment phase, I didn't hand out the ammunition on my Opel Blitz truck to teams that need it. My reasoning was I could always send someone to grab it. When the truck bogged down and became immobilized, I could no longer acquire ammo from it, which severely limited the amount of Area Fire I could use during the mission. ProTip: Always hand out some extra ammo during your deployment, because you never know what might happen.
• Use on-map mortars in a direct fire mode whenever possible. There is no delay, and they fire with maximum accuracy. Find some high ground, set them up, and let the HE fly.
• Any deception you can think of is worth trying. Split squads into teams to make a platoon look twice as big. Have your tanks move as fast as they can, when they can. Use smoke extensively to cover redeployments. Use buddy aid to help prevent the enemy from counting your casualties. Area fire recent contact markers to make your enemy think he's been detected. Anything you can do to throw off the enemy's perception of the battlefield is a good thing. Remember, in a PBEM battle, you're fighting the enemy player, not his troops.
• Always be aware of the effect of prevailing weather conditions:

The first two shots my Panther fired, overshot the Vickers Machinegun he was aiming at, and landed directly between Ithikial's two Shermans behind the ruined house. The fog is just thick enough my Panther can spot the MG that's shooting at him, but not the 30 ton tank 12 meters behind it.

• Never trust a Tank Commander to save his own life. If the enemy can see you, button up your tanks.
• Never take an Anti-Tank Gun to a Quick Battle unless you're defending!
• Maintain Operational Security at all times. Ithikial didn't tell me the exact nature of the bug he was facing with the missing Tank Commanders until it was too late for me to do anything with that information. Likewise, I didn't tell him my Antitank Gun refused to pack up and move, and was basically a sitting duck for additional mortar strikes. Even if you're wrestling with a bug preventing you from doing something, never give your opponent any information they can use to gain an advantage over you.
• Watch the turn replay as many times as it takes to completely understand what happened on every turn. Missing a small detail during a turn replay can cost you dearly later on. Two examples I saw: Ithikial missed the sound contact of my Jpz racing into the town, and seemed to be surprised by it's appearance behind the church. I missed the contact markers heading towards the Rail Bridge, and missed the opportunity to machine gun an entire Platoon to death.
• Commit these words to memory:

I blame myself for that result. If I hadn't been so focused on getting there fast, things would have ended differently.

• Sometimes moving fast will get you killed. Always double check a long movement path before hitting go.

Anyway, I figure that's it for advice and analysis. There's one thing I want to do, which is provide an example of the "Inchworm" attack. I figure I'll make a video explaining the fundamentals. I got the inspiration for it from the Erhard Raus book "Panzer Operations", when he described the "Snail Offensive" used outside Moscow in the winter of 1941. Basically it's a technique to attack with infantry that doesn't have any supporting weapons with it.

That's all for now. Ithikial, feel free to add anything, or correct me if I got something wrong.

Edited November 8, 2015 by SLIM
you're not your

[zinzan]

Thanks Slim for the detailed AA analysis, food for thought there.  Just the sort of post game analysis I crave in AAR's and is sooooo rarely given.

btw I figured your plan had survived "contact with the enemy" very well - surprisinly so (not because it was a bad plan - just it's rare for the plan to work so well). 

[MOS:96B2P]

<Snip> I went into my force purchase with the mindset of attacking an entrenched enemy position located in and around the Town in the center of the map. My purchase of Panzergrenadiers was the result of expecting protracted house-to-house fighting. The result of this was spending a lot of time dealing with troop fatigue, which slowed the rate of my attack, making it more predictable.  <Snip> 

If you had it to do over again what would you have purchased besides panzergrenadiers?    

<Snip> When using on-map mortars, it's very important to keep them attached to their native units for the best C2 connections. It might have been better to delete the mortar platoons from the infantry companies, and attach independent mortar teams directly to the Battalion HQ.  <Snip>

Use on-map mortars in a direct fire mode whenever possible. There is no delay, and they fire with maximum accuracy. Find some high ground, set them up, and let the HE fly. <Snip>

Buying mortars separate will cost more purchase points than just using the organic mortars.  If the mortar unit has a radio they should be able to stay in C2.  Of course the Germans don't have as many radios as the US.  

When playing the US I have found that using the 60mm mortar in the direct fire roll works well.  However I have never tried this with medium mortars.  The light mortars I think are quick to pack up and move with the maneuver platoons.  Not sure how this would work with the mediums.  Or are you suggesting setting the medium mortars up in an overwatch type position for direct fire and not moving them much?  (Unless/until they draw concentrated return fire).   

Thanks for posting this.  One of the best after actions I have seen. 

[womble]

In the spirit of general advice:

One thing to remember when you're buying in QBs is that if you can get what you want out of a formation you've got, you save the 15pt per element surcharge for individual teams or vehicles. But if you're wanting 3 or fewer of [whateveritis], you might be better buying them separately than starting a whole new formation, since each formation has a 50pt surcharge. That's not considering any HQ abilities you might get "for free" if you buy within an already-started formation, nor the additional cost of any mandatory HQ elements you might end up having to buy as well.

A specific example: Ithikial wanted 3 Fireflies (all the Rarity will allow if they're Regular, Normal, 0 VCs) and 3 Shermans. He could have done that in several ways other than buying 2 Fireflies from "individual vehicle" options, including:

1. Buy 3 platoons of the 4-troop armoured formation with Fireflies organic to each troop that he did use, and delete 2 Shermans from each platoon, leaving the HQ 75mm Sherman and the Firefly in each  of the 3 platoons. This gets you 3 HQ (and arty call-privileged) tanks, but has the three kitty-hunters in separate platoons so they might not share info as well, though they will each, effectively, have another set of eyes in the form of their Plt HQ.
2. Take the other (5-troop) formation, and buy one platoon of 3 75mm Shermans, and the platoon of Fireflies, deleting down to 3 also.
3. Take the 5-troop formation and use the 3 Company Command element Shermans to make up the 75mm portion, and take the Firefly platoon and trim it to 3. This puts the lesser tanks in a superior echelon to the AT tanks, so it might mean they share information with the 17lber-armed tanks more effectively, and they'll share info well, being in the same platoon.

None of these are any more gamey, IMO, than tacking random attachments into a platoon, and avoiding the 15 point per unit surcharge can sometimes be important (Ithikial was ferreting around looking for a way to trim a few tens of points at one stage, IIRC) and in the unfortunate specific case of the Firefly, will also avoid a bug...

81mm mortars do work pretty well in Direct Lay (using Target [Light] rather than the support call menu). And have the additional advantage of not needing to be tightly tied into the comms net to execute. On an open map like the one fought over in this thread, keeping the range beyond effective LMG fire is important; in the hedgerows, they can be kept as near the front as the various light mortars can be.

[General Jack Ripper]

If you had it to do over again what would you have purchased besides Panzergrenadiers?

I was thinking Aufklärungs Company, probably with some extra light armor. Something lighter and faster would have been nice for a Meeting Engagement.

Buying mortars separate will cost more purchase points than just using the organic mortars.  If the mortar unit has a radio they should be able to stay in C2.  Of course the Germans don't have as many radios as the US.

I'd have to check that, but I'm pretty sure a couple of individual teams are cheaper than a Platoon. What I really meant though was attaching all your mortars to a single HQ that all of your infantry can communicate with. Because all C2 goes up and down from the Battalion HQ, all HQ units can call for fire from the same assets. It might cost a few more points, but you can weight the points cost against the ease of C2 and communications.

Or are you suggesting setting the medium mortars up in an overwatch type position for direct fire and not moving them much?  (Unless/until they draw concentrated return fire).

That works as well, I did that with my pair of 80mm Mortars, and it was much easier than trying to call for indirect fire.

Thanks for posting this.  One of the best after actions I have seen.

You're welcome, I had even more fun playing this than you did watching!

Take the other (5-troop) formation, and buy one platoon of 3 75mm Shermans, and the platoon of Fireflies, deleting down to 3 also.

I think that would have been my choice. As soon as I saw that Firefly-only Platoon I started drooling like "oooh!".

[Ithikial_AU]

Upon further review, that WASN'T a short Mortar round that caused casualties on the final turn, it was my JagdPanzer SHOOTING MY OWN MEN! I take back every nice thing I ever said about him, the prick!

I thought it was my own mortars finally starting their spotting on that area next to the church.

[Ithikial_AU]

Here we go... 

• Ithikial did not set the 'soft factors' for his units when purchasing them. Every option on the purchasing screen was set to 'Typical', this resulted in a mixed bag of Leadership, Motivation, and Experience. The result of this oversight was a lack of predictable performance from his troops. Some squads performed well, while others performed poorly. In the case of 4 Platoon in the town, the entire platoon folded as soon as it made contact.

With this and some other TOE comments that were listed below about best way to purchase units to max point expenditure... I'm in the camp of seeing this as a little bit 'gamey.' Definitely not in the realm of cheating but the idea of having unique TOE for a range of nations or organisations in a game like this is to experience the sometime subtle differences between them. If you were taking Luftwaffe Field Division force would it be accurate to beef them all up to Crack level troops?

I guess my preference for scenario/campaign play over QB's is shining through there.

• My tanks sole purpose for existing was to hunt down and destroy enemy tanks. I noticed Ithikial was surprised when my Panther ran over to the Town as quickly as it did, but the reason for that was simply the objective of tank hunting. Anywhere I spotted Ithikial's tanks, I took actions to draw them into a fight and destroy them. Shooting up infantry was secondary to that objective.

Can't fault that, it worked! When going up against Commonwealth based TOE, going after armour is probably always a good first objective. Their firepower diminishes very quickly unless they have plenty of off map support which you could also expect with some Commonwealth lists.

• The available LOS from the Chateau hill was nonexistent. The only thing I could see was the Hotel. A careful terrain survey would have revealed this flaw, however, I didn't notice it until after I had positioned all of my heavy weapons.

It was the same for the Hotel on my side of the river which surprised me a bit. Could get good view around the Church but couldn't get LOS to the entry point SLIM used to get his infantry into the town.

• I had no idea how many Shermans I would be facing, but I'm a bit surprised Ithikial didn't throw all six of them at my three tanks simultaneously. Sacrificing the 75mm Shermans to allow the 17pdrs to spot and shoot my tanks is a valid tactic. Once all of my tanks are destroyed, victory is mostly guaranteed. That's why I went into this battle with the sole objective of using my tanks to hunt Ithikial's tanks. The commitment of the Shermans in a piecemeal fashion allowed me to pick them off one at a time.

Goes back to me earlier point about needing the extra firepower to back up my infantry. I knew there was no way I was going to win a small arms fight against the Germans at close ranges dictated by the weather to some extent. This was even during the fight prep and the fight itself when I didn't realise I was up against dismounted Panzergrenadiers with their extra firepower per squad.

Rushing all my armour to one flank to take on the tanks would of I think been a waste. One extra Firefly yes, but also one extra Sherman III which is useless against the front armour of two of the three armour pieces SLIM took. Also by splitting my armour, I hoped this would also force SLIM to split his own and react to my push on both flanks.

• Incoming fire does not mean you have been detected. Area fire can be used as part of a larger fire plan to deny an area to the enemy. Case in point, the Hotel buildings. Machinegun fire made sure no one was in the buildings, and had some suppressive effect until my smoke mission arrived.

True. The fire at the Hotel I suspected was area fire since it kept up after my squad pulled back to safety. The fire going after the Vickers that almost took out a Sherman I thought was the other way around. I thought you were going after the Sherman with the rounds instead falling short to hit the HMG team.

• One quick comment, my 75mm AT Gun couldn't actually see the area Ithikial thought it could. Announcing it's presence with a quick area fire mission provided a small psychological edge over my opponent. He's certainly not going to advance tanks through an area he thinks is covered by anti-tank weaponry. Despite the fact my Antitank Gun did absolutely nothing useful the entire match, if he delayed the deployment of tanks for even a few minutes, it was worth it.

Yep worked a bit but I knew I'd have to run the gauntlet regardless. Funny, I could spot your initial AT gun position with my tanks as I raced down the railway track. I just didn't area fire fearing it would send up a 'flare' in the poor conditions saying "Shoot Me!"

• Use on-map mortars in a direct fire mode whenever possible. There is no delay, and they fire with maximum accuracy. Find some high ground, set them up, and let the HE fly.

Just watch out as mortars firing are pretty easy to spot in my experience. If you can see me, I can probably see you (and the little puffs of smoke as rounds leave the tube).

• Any deception you can think of is worth trying. Split squads into teams to make a platoon look twice as big. Have your tanks move as fast as they can, when they can. Use smoke extensively to cover redeployments. Use buddy aid to help prevent the enemy from counting your casualties. Area fire recent contact markers to make your enemy think he's been detected. Anything you can do to throw off the enemy's perception of the battlefield is a good thing. Remember, in a PBEM battle, you're fighting the enemy player, not his troops.

Very true. Your split squads in the town threw me in their initial push.

• Never trust a Tank Commander to save his own life. If the enemy can see you, button up your tanks.

I'd say this depends on range. I got lucky with the Vickers against your Panther TC. Personally, I also think the TacAI for TC's buttoning up needs to be adjusted a bit. They are a still likely to go a bit Rambo under small arms fire.

• Never take an Anti-Tank Gun to a Quick Battle unless you're defending!

Yep. I was surprised to encounter one actually.

• Maintain Operational Security at all times. Ithikial didn't tell me the exact nature of the bug he was facing with the missing Tank Commanders until it was too late for me to do anything with that information. Likewise, I didn't tell him my Antitank Gun refused to pack up and move, and was basically a sitting duck for additional mortar strikes. Even if you're wrestling with a bug preventing you from doing something, never give your opponent any information they can use to gain an advantage over you.

I'd just add to this that if it can't be resolved inside the game itself, don't let it be a reason to throw the whole game. Just push on if it can't be fixed and report the bug.

 

As for my thoughts, most of mine are at the end of Part 3 of my video series. I'd just add that it was a good choice on SLIM's part to take Panzer Grenadiers. Their firepower is brutal with the extra LMG. Knowing he was up against Commonwealth TOE, meant (I assume) he could rest easy knowing he'd win 9/10 straight infantry only fights. One less thing to worry about is an amazing thing for a tactical commander in my experience.

 

 

 

[General Jack Ripper]

I thought it was my own mortars finally starting their spotting on that area next to the church.

Your mortars did arrive, but the shot that hit the tree and killed my own guys was a short round from my Jpz. I'm still mad about that.

If you were taking Luftwaffe Field Division force would it be accurate to beef them all up to Crack level troops?

Nope, I never buy Crack troops. My guys were set to veteran experience, normal motivation, and +0 leadership. I then went and tweaked values up or down for each squad depending on their job and position. So the only teams that had any leadership were HQ's, the only teams that had high motivation were the Attack Company infantry squads etc. I figure if you have extra points, spend them but don't be a dick, that's my rule.

This is only my second QB PBEM ever, so I don't know all the normal "Gentleman's Agreements" rules that go around. The best I could figure was not to do anything in Force Purchasing or Planning and Deployment that I wouldn't want done to myself. The golden rule as it were. If tweaking soft factors for everything is not seen as "Gentlemanly" then I will refrain from that in the future.

That's all I can say about that.

I guess my preference for scenario/campaign play over QB's is shining through there.

 I left a list of scenarios I'd be willing to play, but you didn't pick any of them. I prefer scenarios as well, having a clearly defined objective is a comforting feeling.

Maybe next time?

Could get good view around the Church but couldn't get LOS to the entry point SLIM used to get his infantry into the town.

I surveyed the terrain, and picked a spot to enter the town that would be hard to see. It's not your troops fault, it's the enemy commanders fault.

Also by splitting my armour, I hoped this would also force SLIM to split his own and react to my push on both flanks.

That probably would have worked, but I never spotted the other group of tanks until after they crossed the Rail Bridge, by then the fight at the Road Bridge was mostly over, and I could safely move both tanks to the Town.

Funny, I could spot your initial AT gun position with my tanks as I raced down the railway track. I just didn't area fire fearing it would send up a 'flare' in the poor conditions saying "Shoot Me!"

Two things with that, first my AT Gun was packing up to re-deploy after it fired the one shot at the Hotel, so he couldn't have shot you, even if he'd spotted you. (Granted, you didn't know that for sure at the time until you saw the truck marker.) Second, I spoke about deliberately exposing your weapons as a means of making the enemy see and react to them, exposing your tanks on that side would have forced me to react to their presence. It feels counterintuitive, and depends entirely on the situation, but it's an option that can be considered. Like I said, you're fighting the other player, not his troops.

Just watch out as mortars firing are pretty easy to spot in my experience. If you can see me, I can probably see you (and the little puffs of smoke as rounds leave the tube).

Yeah, you did shoot one of my mortar guys before they could finish packing up the mortar, but they were able to fire off their entire ammo load before being spotted. I attribute that to the fog and rain though. On a clear day you need to exercise much greater caution.

Knowing he was up against Commonwealth TOE, meant (I assume) he could rest easy knowing he'd win 9/10 straight infantry only fights. One less thing to worry about is an amazing thing for a tactical commander in my experience.

Well, the last time I was up against Commonwealth, I was roughly handled, even with Waffen SS troops. To be honest, I had never used Panzergrenadiers before, so I had no idea what I was buying. I had an image in my head of being part of a Panzer Division attacking into the area, and that was the "theme" I was trying to build for. I said before I enjoy the force purchasing part of the game because it lets me make up stories about who we are, and what we're doing here.

I had this whole narrative built in my head about being a spearhead unit sent to secure a vital river crossing before the arrival of the main force.

[General Jack Ripper]

One less thing to worry about is an amazing thing for a tactical commander in my experience.

And, yes, that's absolutely true. Once I realized that I had this huge firepower at my disposal I was perfectly willing to leave infantry in position without any support. Granted, fighting at ranges of over 250 meters tended to favor the Poles over the Germans. Especially the opening skirmish at the Road Bridge. I took a bunch of casualties without inflicting any that I could see, and that felt very frustrating. I even used the word "stalemate" to describe the situation.

[delliejonut]

I forgot to check in for a while but this was a great fight, just read through the whole DAR. I never thought to split German squads with the assault command. You did a great job executing your plan SLIM.

Btw I looked up crossing a linear danger area and I'm still a little fuzzy on some details. How does that battle drill apply to CMBN?

[General Jack Ripper]

Btw I looked up crossing a linear danger area and I'm still a little fuzzy on some details. How does that battle drill apply to CMBN?

I'll show a demonstration when I make my "Inchworm" attack video. 

[MOS:96B2P]

I'll show a demonstration when I make my "Inchworm" attack video.     

Cool.  Observing how other players use game mechanics in drills TACSOPs is always interesting.  Looking forward to this.  

[Doug Williams]

Very well done, Slim! Bravo. Everything was well executed, from your initial plan, to the execution, to the end result. I need to consult you sometime soon regarding your skillset with video editing. My DAR videos could use some "sprucing up".

Re: "Soft Factors" in QBs. I *never* purchase "Typical" troops in QBs. If it's a QB, I'm in it to win it. Save the historical mindset for scenarios, I say.

Great DAR. Thank you both.

 

[General Jack Ripper]

Thanks Doug.

Any time you need help recording video, send me a message. I'll be glad to offer some advice/feedback.

Cool.  Observing how other players use game mechanics in drills TACSOPs is always interesting.  Looking forward to this.  

Well, as soon as I get off my butt and make the video, I'll let you know. I'm thinking of expanding it out to a general "How to Attack with a Platoon" video. I've been busy reading FM 3-21.8 "The Infantry Rifle Platoon and Squad", and I would rather try to illustrate concepts from that document, than focus on one specific tactical example.

In hindsight, my "Inchworm" attack was more like a standard Rifle Platoon assault, than anything specially invented. I think it was a matter of my study of the FM's bleeding through into my gameplay.