What are the in-game effects of fatigue?

[Bulletpoint]

I know that very tired troops won't run, but are there any other effects from letting your guys get exhausted?

 

I always assume there's a morale/firing accuracy/spotting penalty, but maybe I'm just imagining things because I want to believe ?

[JoMac]

Not sure myself, but hope that Tiring through Exhausted have firing and spotting penalties.

 

Joe

[womble]

It's a real difficult thing to test, not least because while you're conducting the test your test subjects are getting their breath back, so you have to spend a lot of time managing their fatigue state to get minutes of action where they're under the same (if there are any) penalties...

[Vinnart]

I think it has an overall effect on effectiveness in a few areas. One being accuracy since we must assume logically they are breathing harder throwing off aim. Also, the more exhausted would slow down reaction time. Morale fragility is also probably effected since physical fatigue effects stress levels. Bottom line try to keep your troop from going into the "yellow" or "red". If they do try not to move them till they rest. I usually give them a HIDE order too if possible till they recover especially if in the "red". Lots of good advice on the forum to keep fatigue minimal.

[Bulletpoint]

I think it has an overall effect on effectiveness in a few areas. One being accuracy since we must assume logically they are breathing harder throwing off aim. Also, the more exhausted would slow down reaction time. Morale fragility is also probably effected since physical fatigue effects stress levels. Bottom line try to keep your troop from going into the "yellow" or "red". If they do try not to move them till they rest. I usually give them a HIDE order too if possible till they recover especially if in the "red". Lots of good advice on the forum to keep fatigue minimal.

I assume the same things as you, but i would like to know for certain

[Vinnart]

Ok, I'm going to say that they definitely do along with all other soft factors. Why? Well if there was no effect why have the factors in the first place? This includes the 5 stages of vehicle damage and so on. As to the exactness of how a soft factor effects a unit it has always been something of a mystery as I never recall BF ever chiming in to explain it in more depth. However, from years of playing like so many other veteran players out there we can use our experiences and logic to understand the system, and the factors. Also, with understanding of how BF tend to think in regards to realism we can apply logic. Think of how it is in real life, and it probably is factored into the game. With all this in mind I think my thoughts on fatigue effects are not far off the mark. The differences are minimal in each factor, but they add up till units are in the "yellow" or "red". Think of it as a few dials with 100 marks on it being the max. Each negative factor adds to the clicks backwards. The difference between 90 and 100 are certainly less than 50 and 100. Each click of the dial effects other dials too such as morale.

 

Here are some "dials", but the list may not be complete. Each factor can effect each other factor in the end producing an overall effectiveness. This can be subtle or dramatic depending on the spread say 0 to 100, This is raw, and not factoring in equipment such as if the unit has binos for spotting which even adds more to the diversity in effectiveness of the whole for example with spotting ability..

 

Ability "dials":

Spotting ability 

Reaction time,

Communication time,

AI decision making upon conditions (good or poor)

Accuracy

 

Now, the more physically exhausted one is the more it would effect each one of those abilities.  Other factors such as rank, experience, leadership also would effect some, or all those dials even if in a subtle way.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Vinnart

[A Canadian Cat]

It is true we have not had an official accounting of the effects.  Or at least I have never seen one I totally agree with @Vinnart.

[womble]

Ok, I'm going to say that they definitely do along with all other soft factors. Why? Well if there was no effect why have the factors in the first place? This includes the 5 stages of vehicle damage and so on.

And I'm going to argue that it's no proof. There are distinct differences at Tired and Exhausted, and it's worth having Ready, Tiring and Fatigued (Rested being the "base state") so that you see some progression between the three movement limiting states, rather than having a "catastrophic" progression from "Rested" to "Tired" without any distinct indication; having to keep track of how much yomping every "apparently Rested" team has done, so you know which ones are about to stop being able to sprint Fast, would be a feat of memory.

 

Doesn't mean that you are definitely wrong, just that there might be no purpose but information for the player in the three states where movement options are not curtailed.

[Bulletpoint]

The only thing I've noticed for sure is that very tired troops will lose the ability to run FAST and then later they won't even run QUICK.

 

I assume/hope there's more to it than that. Because I always try to keep troops from getting too tired. But I don't know if it's a wasted effort or not.

[Vinnart]

I have done conclusive tests for example on the different stages of track /wheel damage, but this is hard for one to test I think say for effects on accuracy since there is no rifle range. We could set up to fire at vehicles which would register a hit with hit text, but that is  a rather large target.  Would be very cool if someone could come up with a good testing ground (mod?) with round metal targets that would show a hit text. We could then put some equal rated squads and run some around to get into different stages of fatigue, then put them on the firing range and compare at least accuracy to see if fatigue level effects shooting.

[Bulletpoint]

I have done conclusive tests for example on the different stages of track /wheel damage, but this is hard for one to test I think say for effects on accuracy since there is no rifle range. We could set up to fire at vehicles which would register a hit with hit text, but that is  a rather large target.  Would be very cool if someone could come up with a good testing ground (mod?) with round metal targets that would show a hit text. We could then put some equal rated squads and run some around to get into different stages of fatigue, then put them on the firing range and compare at least accuracy to see if fatigue level effects shooting.

 

 

It might also be possible to set up a similar test, where you run the squads around first to fatigue them, then run them up against a hedgerow that opens up into a lane on the other side of which would be an enemy squad... then see who generally got out best of the ensuring firefight. That would not show what exactly was influenced by fatigue (morale, accuracy, C2, speed) but it would show the combined effect - does it or does it not affect combat effectiveness?

 

But yes, a mess to test.

[Vinnart]

The best way to test a general accuracy test may be with a shreck, or rpg in, like you say Bulletpoint, in a lane. Set it up hotseat, with backing the target vehicle coming in ass backwards with a cover arc to their front. The thing is those weapons arrent the most accurate to begin with and range will factor in too. Perhaps 75m-100m may be suitable for a control group testing. All the firing troops should be the same I think should be Regular with 0 soft factors. I do believe it effects accuracy and other factors, and know it does effect fragility in relation to morale. Moving the firing unit should also show difference in reaction time when moved to firing position up to a boccage as suggested.

 

The thing is I do not have the ambition to conduct this test. Since womble wants hard proof I elect him to find what he seeks . I'll remain faithful to my own observations from play, and intuition in regard to soft factors and their effects. All one really needs to know is not being in the "yellow", or "red" is better than being in that state. It is better to be +2 rather than -2.

Edited August 8, 2015 by Vinnart

[womble]

The best way to test a general accuracy test may be with a shreck, or rpg in, like you say Bulletpoint, in a lane. Set it up hotseat, with backing the target vehicle coming in ass backwards with a cover arc to their front. The thing is those weapons arrent the most accurate to begin with and range will factor in too. Perhaps 75m-100m may be suitable for a control group testing. All the firing troops should be the same I think should be Regular with 0 soft factors. I do believe it effects accuracy and other factors, and know it does effect fragility in relation to morale. Moving the firing unit should also show difference in reaction time when moved to firing position up to a boccage as suggested.

 

The thing is I do not have the ambition to conduct this test. Since womble wants hard proof I elect him to find what he seeks . I'll remain faithful to my own observations from play, and intuition in regard to soft factors and their effects. All one really needs to know is not being in the "yellow", or "red" is better than being in that state. It is better to be +2 rather than -2.

I don't want or need any proof. I'm happy to assume there are no or only subtle effects. So go find some other schmuck to do your tests for you

[Erwin]

On a related note that has been mentioned many times before..  Given the relatively small maps of CM2, isn't MOVE rather a wasted option since it's supposed to only be used in safe rear area movement - of which there is usually very little in CM2.

 

What was the reason for eliminating the useful MOVE TO CONTACT of CM1, since HUNT is too slow and tiring for longer distances?

[Bulletpoint]

On a related note that has been mentioned many times before.. Given the relatively small maps of CM2, isn't MOVE rather a wasted option since it's supposed to only be used in safe rear area movement - of which there is usually very little in CM2.

What was the reason for eliminating the useful MOVE TO CONTACT of CM1, since HUNT is too slow and tiring for longer distances?

MOVE is something that should be changed or taken out. It's useless as it is, apart from making movies I guess.

[Vinnart]

MOVE is something that should be changed or taken out. It's useless as it is, apart from making movies I guess.

 

I disagree. The order has its place and can be used to good effect. Here are just a few examples:

 

You want the unit to move slowly with better spotting than QUICK. You also do not want the movement to possibly stop if contact is made.

Instead of giving a stop break with some distance to jog, you give them  some MOVE orders in between some QUICK movement lines to keep moving while conserving energy.

 

The reason i suspect Movement to Contact was not included is to try to streamline the massive amount of controls already. I've been playing cmx2 for some years now, and have manged fine without it.

.

Edited August 11, 2015 by Vinnart

[Bulletpoint]

I disagree. The order has its place and can be used to good effect. Here are just a few examples:

You want the unit to move slowly with better spotting than QUICK. You also do not want the movement to possibly stop if contact is made.

Instead of giving a stop break with some distance to jog, you give them some MOVE orders in between some QUICK movement lines to keep moving while conserving energy.

The reason i suspect Movement to Contact was not included is to try to streamline the massive amount of controls already. I've been playing cmx2 for some years now, and have manged fine without it.

.

Why would you use move when you can have them keep running nearly forever with quick? If it's to spot, they spot better while stationary.

[Vinnart]

Why would you use move when you can have them keep running nearly forever with quick? If it's to spot, they spot better while stationary.

 

They cannot run forever. If they are in the "yellow", and especially in deep woods, and i want them to keep moving instead of stopping I use MOVE.

 

Units spot better with MOVE than QUICK. Stopping spots better than Moving, but if I do not want them to stop all together i will give them MOVE. All the orders have their time and place.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I also use Move as a pseudo move to contact. If they spot and engage an enemy unit they will generally stop moving so long as the enemy remains spotted. It's like a more aggressive but less tiring Hunt.

[Bud Backer]

They cannot run forever. If they are in the "yellow", and especially in deep woods, and i want them to keep moving instead of stopping I use MOVE.

 

Units spot better with MOVE than QUICK. Stopping spots better than Moving, but if I do not want them to stop all together i will give them MOVE. All the orders have their time and place.

I agree with all this. I like Quick but there is no way I can have my units use it near constantly; they will get tired. Move is good for situational awareness and a decent compromise between Hunt and Quick that will hopefully keep my troops aware but not fatigued.

[A Canadian Cat]

Yep.  Move is also useful when you have a unit that is already tired and you need them to keep going because stopping to rest is not safe enough.  They can keep moving without getting to the fatigued state.

[Bud Backer]

Yep.  Move is also useful when you have a unit that is already tired and you need them to keep going because stopping to rest is not safe enough.  They can keep moving without getting to the fatigued state.

Good reminder! I do that often with tired troops.

I wonder, do they recover from Tired if using normal movement or do they have to actually be stopped?

[Vinnart]

I also use Move as a pseudo move to contact. If they spot and engage an enemy unit they will generally stop moving so long as the enemy remains spotted. It's like a more aggressive but less tiring Hunt.

 

Exactly!

[Vinnart]

Good reminder! I do that often with tired troops.

I wonder, do they recover from Tired if using normal movement or do they have to actually be stopped?

 

Good question, but Quick will always expend more energy than Move. My Guess is at worst the energy expenditure is minimal or stable during MOVE unless in the "red". Then stop and hide them if you can till they recover because energy is critical.

[IronCat60]

I wonder if CMx4 will require you to hit the "brew a cuppa tea", "make a cup of joe" or "take a hit off the schnapps bottle" button to get tired troops back up and going again?