Arena intercepted Tank shells

[Nercon]

When I was using BMP-3 advancing on a mission, a M1a2 ambushed and fire upon me in approximately 500 meters, then the miracle happened, Arena was activated and intercepted the 120mm m256 gun, successfully   and the last time I check, the maximum possible interception speed for Arena was only 700m/s(≈2296ft/s)

 

Now, I do considering is that the year 2017 makes Arena more advanced, or is it just some calculation error? or there a statistic test that proofs the Arena is capable of intercepting main battle tank's gun shell?

 

Note: this is not only happens on M1A2, my test in game proof that it is capable of defeating any sort of MBT's main gun. Funny thing is, while overwhelmingly effective against MBT, unguided rocket launcher often easily breaching in the APS defense perimeter and destroy the entire vehicle.

Edited June 13, 2015 by Nercon

[agusto]

What? This must be new in 1.03...do you have a savegame?

[Nercon]

What? This must be new in 1.03...do you have a savegame?

nah.. but it happens multiple times, in multiple scenario, more than I can even count

[A Canadian Cat]

I do not think that is the intended outcome.  Given that I have seen lots of burning BMP3s (oh who are we kidding they don't burn they explode) done in by M1s and I have *never* see that could you please reproduce it and save the turn so that others can see it and report it.

 

Please.

[Nercon]

I do not think that is the intended outcome.  Given that I have seen lots of burning BMP3s (oh who are we kidding they don't burn they explode) done in by M1s and I have *never* see that could you please reproduce it and save the turn so that others can see it and report it.

 

Please.

for some reason I couldn't recreate the M1A2 scenario currently, but I did tested with T-84 and it just intercepted it.

 

Here's a little test range I made for the test, T-84 engage with BMP-3 at 500 meters, just remember to set the target arc shorter for BMP-3 since it is faster on spotting and locking on T-84 which makes it pops smoke everywhere.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BxcKPFQ13nrSY013bUNra3dOa0U&authuser=0

Edited June 13, 2015 by Nercon

[agusto]

Ahh, a Ukrainian tank, maybe it' s using its ATGM and THAT is what is intercepted by Arena? The Russian/Ukrainian tanks all (or at least  some of them) have barrel launched ATGMs fro their main guns.

[Nercon]

Ahh, a Ukrainian tank, maybe it' s using its ATGM and THAT is what is intercepted by Arena? The Russian/Ukrainian tanks all (or at least  some of them) have barrel launched ATGMs fro their main guns.

I did the same test both on Iron and Scenario Test, every single time the T-84 uses it's 125mm T-HEAT and that's for sure

[exsonic01]

I didn't experienced "APS killed KE shell", but I also felt the later one: "Non-guided rockets mole likely to penetrate APS than ATGM"

 

Well, this is just only my gut feeling, so I'm not sure whether this is true or not.

[Nercon]

I didn't experienced "APS killed KE shell", but I also felt the later one: "Non-guided rockets mole likely to penetrate APS than ATGM"

 

Well, this is just only my gut feeling, so I'm not sure whether this is true or not.

I was thinking about this, it might just because of the rarity of ATGM compare to the massively equipped and used RPG makes it seems more likely to be penetrated It is just my guess though

[sburke]

Testing grounds are really important for separating gut feelings from certainty.  It is a normal reaction to notice when things go wrong for you, to the point you don't really consider how often they go right.  At least I know it is true for me.  I have become inherently untrusting of my gut feelings in CM until I can verify them.  As a beta tester it is really important to make sure when creating a ticket that you can replicate or at least have a very good save to show behavior.  Without that you might as well skip ticket creating.  Interesting thing is I am surprised at how often once I test I either can never recreate the event or I simply prove myself wrong.

 

For example agusto's comment above.  That is a very good point.  I just had a Bulat fire a Kombat at a Russian T72.  I didn't realize it until after having done multiple views of the shot I actually saw the Kombat amount decrement.

[Nercon]

Testing grounds are really important for separating gut feelings from certainty.  It is a normal reaction to notice when things go wrong for you, to the point you don't really consider how often they go right.  At least I know it is true for me.  I have become inherently untrusting of my gut feelings in CM until I can verify them.  As a beta tester it is really important to make sure when creating a ticket that you can replicate or at least have a very good save to show behavior.  Without that you might as well skip ticket creating.  Interesting thing is I am surprised at how often once I test I either can never recreate the event or I simply prove myself wrong.

 

For example agusto's comment above.  That is a very good point.  I just had a Bulat fire a Kombat at a Russian T72.  I didn't realize it until after having done multiple views of the shot I actually saw the Kombat amount decrement.

I uploaded the Testing ground in #5, clearly T-84 was shooting 125mm T-HEAT as its primary ammo selection when engaging BMP-3, which definitely been blocked by Arena almost every single test

Edited June 13, 2015 by Nercon

[agusto]

I uploaded the Testing ground in #5, clearly T-84 was shooting 125mm T-HEAT as its primary ammo selection when engaging BMP-3, which definitely been blocked by Arena almost every single test

 

Ok. Now we need to determine the impact velocity of the T-84s T-HEAT round. It is entirely possible that the T-HEAT round is slow enough to be intercepted by the APS while at the same time an APFSDS round fired from the same gun is too fast for the system.

 

EDIT: Nercon, could you do some more testing? Could you test if the T-90AMs APS can intercept the T-84s APFSDS rounds? You need to use T-90s as targets because i doubt you will get the TacAI to us KE rounds on BMPs if HEAT ammo is available. Why is this test important? Because then we know for sure that this is a bug without having to find out what' s the probably impact velocity of the T-HEAT round when it hit' s a BMP-3.

 

EDIT2: You could also test whether or not the observed behaviour is dependent on the range - at very long ranges it might be possible for a round to lose enough velocity to be slow enough for the APS to intercept it.

Edited June 13, 2015 by agusto

[MikeyD]

Arena is tagged at a max velocity that it can intercept. I want to say 900ms, though I may be all wet on that number. If your round falls below that velocity then it's susceptible to interception. I believe 120mm HE would start out at around 950ms. Firing across a big map the round would of course slow its flight, possibly bringing it just inside the capabilities of Arena

[sburke]

Thanks Nercon.  I think I have a good shot.  The distance just so everyone knows is approx 500 meters.

 

 

One suggestion Nercon for test maps, you want to remove any extraneous influences.  I edited your map and put a wall on each end to the side to hide the formation units you used to create the scenario.  They were coming into play and affecting how well I could replicate what we needed.

 

As to the questions of velocity and other weapons systems, I'll leave that to the grogs.

 

FYI I ran the test 5x each with the original Oplot and then replaced with an M1.  All 5x the Oplot was intercepted.  All 5x the M1 destroyed the target.

Edited June 13, 2015 by sburke

[akd]

Threshold for latest version of Arena is said to be 1000 m/s.

[Kieme(ITA)]

If I am not mistaken in another thread was reported an interception of the T-HEAT round coming from an Oplot.

 

But the M1 rounds being intercepted sounds new to me.

[sburke]

If I am not mistaken in another thread was reported an interception of the T-HEAT round coming from an Oplot.

 

But the M1 rounds being intercepted sounds new to me.

So far I have not had an M1 round intercepted in this test.

[womble]

The firing of the HEAT round pretty much explains it. HEAT rounds are fired slower than APDS rounds because the projectile needs time from the standoff probe touching the surface of the target, for the fuse to fire, the HE to explode and the penetrator to form properly. Since no one can replicate the originally reported M1 results, it looks like Arena isn't capable in-game of intercepting hypervelocity rod penetrators, as ought to be the case, but can intercept MACH 3 or so HEAT rounds.

 

Or there's a bug that's so intermittent it's very rarely seen.

[Haiduk]

Muzzle velocity of T-HEAT ammunition 3VK-14 and 3VK-18, usual for UKR tanks are 905 m/s and 915 m/s

Edited June 14, 2015 by Haiduk

[agusto]

Muzzle velocity of T-HEAT ammunition 3VK-14 and 3VK-18, usual for UKR tanks are 905 m/s and 915 m/s

 

.I believe [the M1s] 120mm HE would start out at around 950ms.

 

Threshold for latest version of Arena is said to be 1000 m/s.

 

That explains the oberserved behaviour it seems.

Edited June 14, 2015 by agusto

[Muzzleflash1990]

What are the vertically protected area using Arena? I had a TOW-2 attack a tank equipped with it. Normally I would guess it have a decent change of intercepting the missile. However, the tank was on a downwards facing slope and the TOW-2 was destroyed about 70-80 degrees above. I do not have the save game, but did record a video:

 

 

I know the angle of the video isn't best, but I did try to find better approximates of the angle from the side, but one thing is sure: it is definitely higher than 45 degrees, and i'm quite sure it was more, from the "tanks horizontal plane".

[Nercon]

That explains the oberserved behaviour it seems.

I guess this is the reasonable explanation for the APS intercepetion

[Nercon]

What are the vertically protected area using Arena? I had a TOW-2 attack a tank equipped with it. Normally I would guess it have a decent change of intercepting the missile. However, the tank was on a downwards facing slope and the TOW-2 was destroyed about 70-80 degrees above. I do not have the save game, but did record a video:

 

 

I know the angle of the video isn't best, but I did try to find better approximates of the angle from the side, but one thing is sure: it is definitely higher than 45 degrees, and i'm quite sure it was more, from the "tanks horizontal plane".

I did experienced the same situation just like what happened in your video, and I've seen Javelin missile is been intercepted too, although it only happened once in my entire gameplay ever since the game release

[Sublime]

the first thing i thought of when reading this was the HEAT rounds slower velocity. but it still doesnt feel right O mean we.re talking an incredibly close threshold between intercept and non intercept like what 50m/s? i mean ive only been playing pbems and i dont play with aps anyways but this just brings it to a new level of extreme. imo its just too often used. even with Russian tanks which can be pretty fragile - T90AMs gttn wiped down by bradleys from the side anyone? with APS they can be deathstars especially against Ukr where if you play anywhere near realistically should have Oplots rarely and mostly T84s and T64s. Ukrs true anti armor strong suite is ATGMS. I dont even need to comment on m1s with aps its ridiculous.

Obviously nobodies always gonna wanna do what i want but id be just as haply having no APS or making it insanely rare or expensive or both. Look at the number of Rpgs and ATGMs. APS is cool for like one or two battles.. oo cool. then its just there. Meanwhile unless youbhave house rules many wont buy ATGMs especially infantry because APS. Idk guess its a pet peeve of mine. and i know people say APS only has so many shots but it has plenty for one CM battle. And the way tanks work especially against guided ATGMs (not javelins usually but often) is if fired and missiles intercepted the crews toast. its worse with American tanks the built in LWR and turret slew to threat area means that missile may not get guided to target becayse the operators dead. admittedly i see this more with Khrizanthemas because you can spot them more easily, but i see it with other ATGMs too.

As far as ATGMs heres my personal rating list. Javelin apex predator. Kornet great weapon but not fire and forget - wish khriz would target with radar only more often not to alert m1s.

Saxhorn - pleasantly surprised. crew didnt have many rounds but the one battle i used them in they ko.d an M1. admittedly it was a case of right place right time nd the m1 was facing downward on a steep slope but that saxhorn went right through turret top armor. Beautiful.

The Skif is a very potent ATGM ive grown to like a lot and its other counterpart the Corsar. the Corsar is great because its shoulder fired.

the At4C... well ive used em but i didnt have a lot of choice. Ukrainians gotta make do somtimes. they.ll kill tanks but its a bloody biz and their missiles fly really slow compared to other game.missiles leading to heavy crew casualties before the missile even strikes target often. the worst AT weapon even over Rpg7s ive used are recoilless rifles which Imho are godawful. i dont think ive ever even killed an enemy target with one and thats with four in a battle shooting their whole loads at BMPs BTRs and T90s. No hits even!

Finally a side note on my rant. i hope Bfc could consider eventually making an option for Bmps and bradleys. the bradleys suffer way less because their autocannon can KO Russian armor from the flanks at least. But Id like to see even perhaps like beadleys or bmps with cover armor arcs use ATGMS first ubless out or reloading, or a command to tell them fire ATGMS over anything else first. Again thisbaffects the BMP way more but Ive seen numerous battles against human playersbsuch as Nidan and MOS where BMP 3Ms and BMP 2Ms were say 800-1500m from m1s. they open up with 30mm autocannon. one bmp actually survived three turns of hammering away then switched to its ATGM and a 120mm dart blew it to smithereens. Ive seen this happen at ranges from 100m to 1500m which i consider atgm range especially against an abrams.

Edited June 15, 2015 by Sublime

[stikkypixie]

50m/s is pretty fast, and by all means NOT slow :-). Besides you're considering starting velocity. I would imagine the velocity loss would quite different for both types of rounds.