Spotting .... again ...

[Wiggum15]

So whats the bug exactly ?

What setting is buggy ?

Mist ?

[Childress]

On the subject of spotting, does CM reproduce this German advantage?

 

Gen. G.C. Marshall's 30 June 1945 biennial report to Congress, covering the US part of the campaign in the ETO:

"A second marked German advantage during most of the European war was in powder. German ammunition was charged with smokeless, flashless powder which, in both night and day fighting, helped the enemy tremendously in concealing his fire positions. United States riflemen, machine gunners, and gunners of all types had to expose their positions with telltale muzzle flashes or puffs of powder smoke. German preparations had given them time to develop this high-grade powder and manufacture tremendous quantities of it. They had it there and they used it. "

[Lt Bull]

Umm, that is what I have been saying for several posts now. I'm hurt you didn't believe me.  Well no not really, but you do now get what I was trying to say, perhaps I just wasn't being clear enough.  Ha that is almost a pun.

 

You were discussing things in what seemed to be more subjective and general terms without revealing further insight in to the situation.  When using the LOS tool, it was established that 40m appeared to be the max visibility range, which, despite being considerably low and "extreme" compared to a dawn/day battle, is still not as extreme as a 30m, 20m, 10m or even 0m night battle.. Yes, technically the 40m max visibility range for that scenario was correct, but it was only later revealed that it was only for spotting units that are firing their weapons. Never was this rather important bit of information ever mentioned anywhere.  Neither was the fact that indeed the effective non-combat spotting range was actually 0m (or close enough to it).

 

I get what you were trying to say, I hope you understand why it was making no sense without shedding more light (excuse the pun) on what actually was going on with that scenario.

 

PS: I must add that in the above scenario in question, spotting range to non-firing infantry was also 0m.

 

This discussion definitely has revealed a little bit more about how the CM LOS mechanics must work, how the scenario parameters can affect things and to the fact that it all is rather very poorly documented and understood by players at least.

 

I have already mentioned my surprise at the variety of weather conditions that can be selected for a battle.  There are 13 for CMRT and CMBN, and 17 for CMFI (it has 4 extra relating to snow conditions).

 

Now one can imagine that somehow, each one of these conditions could have their own unique way of affecting the LOS/spotting mechanics in the game.  Perhaps there are more than one parameter relating to each condition (eg. max range spotting moving infantry, max range spotting infantry firing etc).  At this stage here, only an exhaustive test would be able to reveal quantitatively how each one of these conditions may affect the LOS/spotting mechanics.  Either way, the more conditions and the more parameters associated to each condition there are, the more complex things get, especially when these all then need to interact with the time of day/date conditions.

 

It seems clear that the game treats firing and non-firing units differently as far as maximum spotting range goes.  According to this scenarios conditions, the maximum spotting range as reported by the LOS tool seemed to be only applicable to units that were firing.  Only when actually playing the scenario would a player ever know the range at which they could actually spot a non-firing unit, which really makes no sense/is totally unhelpful from a scenario designing point of view.  To save us all from further exhaustive testing, it would be good to know from BFC under what conditions the LOS tool can be used to indicate maximum spotting range of no-firing units as opposed to firing units.  I think all/most of us thought it was for non-firing units.

 

We also know that the game treats moving and non-moving units differently as far as spotting, as well as the different types (sizes etc) of units.  However in this scenario under these conditions none of those things seemed to matter.  Spotting range of moving non-firing units of all types was 0m.

 

I can be certain of this: given all the condition variables and possible combinations of these with the time of day/date settings, it is not surprising that some of the more "exotic"/less common combinations result in bizarre/unexpected/undesirable LOS/spotting behavior, which is what might still be happening here (if in fact IanL says a bug of some kind might have been discovered).

 

Has anyone done any of the exhaustive LOS/spotting testing needed to fully understand what difference each of the 17 weather variables has on say the maximum range to which the light blue firing line extends out along flat open ground during midday of say 1st May 1944 in Sicily?  Or the average time it takes to spot a Sherman tank in open ground at this maximum range? etc???

 

PS:  I have just noticed that under the Description tab in the Scenario Editor, there is a field that can be manually selected called "Daylight" with options Day, Night, Dusk, Dawn.  I think however that these are independent to the actually Year/Month/Day/Hour/ Minute settings under the Data tab.  Ideally the "Daylight" parameter should be driven by the time of day in the Data tab and not be independent, otherwise it is possible to make a scenario that may be described as a Night battle when in fact it is a day battle.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Lt Bull

[Vanir Ausf B]

On the subject of spotting, does CM reproduce this German advantage?

 

No.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Has anyone done any of the exhaustive LOS/spotting testing needed to fully understand what difference each of the 17 weather variables has on say the maximum range to which the light blue firing line extends out along flat open ground during midday of say 1st May 1944 in Sicily?  Or the average time it takes to spot a Sherman tank in open ground at this maximum range? etc???

 

Good lord, no. That way madness lies.

[sburke]

You were discussing things in what seemed to be more subjective and general terms without revealing further insight in to the situation.  When using the LOS tool, it was established that 40m appeared to be the max visibility range, which, despite being considerably low and "extreme" compared to a dawn/day battle, is still not as extreme as a 30m, 20m, 10m or even 0m night battle.. Yes, technically the 40m max visibility range for that scenario was correct, but it was only later revealed that it was only for spotting units that are firing their weapons. Never was this rather important bit of information ever mentioned anywhere.  Neither was the fact that indeed the effective non-combat spotting range was actually 0m (or close enough to it).

see post # 30 

 

So again 40m is the absolute most you can do anything. If I were to area fire at a point 10 m in front of your position and was 40 m from that spot you could not return fire, that is how dark your scenario is. If you want to set parameters so extreme as that and play a scenario, have at it. Just please don't start a spotting debate as you are already setting up an extreme condition. No you can not see out to 40 meters, that is not what I said. I said, under the BEST of conditions in your scenario you can see to 40 m. Those best conditions include the unit you are trying to spot firing

 

I can lead ya to water, but I can't make you read.

 

 

somehow I even garnered a negative point for explaining that.  Hmm boy that really encourages me to test  for issues like this.  I get dinged because the description of the conditions.  Perhaps I should just ignore the public forum.  Thanks Phantom

Edited April 5, 2015 by sburke

[Lt Bull]

see post # 30 

 

OK, I can see what you were trying to say NOW, but I think you lost me back at post #18.  "The Max effective LOS is 40 meters.  In other words it is pitch dark, pitch pitch dark, like moonless horror movie evil monster dark.  Now that max effective distance is once you know something is there at all.  So you have an extremely poor visibility scenario to begin with".

 

This made no sense to me at all given what I was experiencing when I was checking things out in the scenario. It didn't sound like you were telling us anything we didn't already know.  "The Max effective LOS is 40 meters.  In other words it is pitch dark, pitch pitch dark"....without explaining in detail what you meant by Max effective LOS, I took it as just the range you can spot anything, so how could you call 40m the darkest when it seemed it could have even been 30m, 20m 0m. The phrase  "Once you know something is there"? What does that mean? It is so inappropriate and ambiguous in terms of explaining and understanding what the heck was actually going on with the LOS/spotting in that scenario.

 

If you had said something like:

 

"There are two spotting ranges that need to be understood in this and any other CM scenario:

 

1.  The range to spot non-firing units (what I will call something like Max Functional range, this can not be checked in a game other than by experience)

2. The range to spot firing units (what you called Max Effective range, this is what the LOS tool indicates)

 

This scenario just happens to have the Max Effective range operating at 40m and the Functional range at 0m."

 

...then I would have understood and avoided the confusion.  And if you had somehow explained how this night scenario (unlike the majority of others people have probably played) was made to achieve these truly extreme conditions (eg.  the date and time set in the scenario editor must have corresponded to a moonless night, combined with a mist weather setting = ), it would have made even more sense to those who were comparing this scenario with experiences with other, less "extreme" darkness night scenario they may have played where these "must be in same AS to spot" conditions not only never existed, but just sound unrealistic anyway.

 

I hope you understand that not being precise and clear discussing an issue as subtle and as poorly understood/documented as this leads to further misunderstanding and confusion.

Edited April 5, 2015 by Lt Bull

[Lt Bull]

Good lord, no. That way madness lies.

 

LOL! I didn't think so, but certainly doesn't stop me from wondering/tinkering with the scenario editor to do a few tests.

 

The first thing that is apparent is just how varied the Max Effective spotting range is (I don't know if sburke was using official BFC terminology for it however, I don't think it is appropriate but I will use it) if you just change the DATE at which a night battle occurs!!

 

I had to consult this page to tell me what the different phases of the moon were back in 1944: http://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/1944/june

 

I then picked days when there was a full moon (100% moon illuminated) and when there was a new moon (0% of moon illuminated), entered them in to the editor and checked what the LOS told me the Max Effective spotting range was.

 

I was surprised by the results. All tests checked from infantry unit on flat grass terrain, "Clear" weather, at 00:00 hrs.

 

On a full moon, the Max Effective spotting range was at least as long as the longest map I could make (which was 4160m in length)!

On a new moon, the Max Effective spotting range was 399m!

 

FYI, the scenario we were looking at had a date of 25th June 1944, which according to the website corresponds to what is known as a "waxing crescent" with 22% of the moon illuminated. 

 

When I checked the Max Effective spotting range for the 25th June 1944 under similar time and weather conditions, the Max Effective spotting range is also 399m.

 

I decided to check this range during a first or last quarter when the moon was essentially 50% illuminated.  Now when I went to check the Max Effective spotting range this time around, i noticed something EXTREMELY odd. It appears that if you drag out the blue LOS line to what first appears to be it's maximum value, then continue to hold it just beyond the point it goes from light blue to darkblue/pink for a few more seconds, the line eventual changes to be light blue at ranges it first showed to be blue/pink! You can do this indefinitely it seems so that the Max Effective range indicated is 100s of metres (I didn't test any further) further from the first spot it reported as appearing to be the maximum range value.

 

Anyway, if I take the first spot where the range appears to be at a maximum, it appears to be around 2845m.

 

I did not know or expect that checking LOS with the LOS tool (at least under these conditions) is a dynamic time dependent activity.  I think I should ask here before doing any further tests if this "blue line creep" is expected/intended behavior, or is it a "b" word?

Edited April 5, 2015 by Lt Bull

[WinOrLose]

Strange - I find spotting too easy...

 

Main gripe is the little to no effect that intervening trees have and the almost non existent effect of shadows and trees on tank spotting.

[Lt Bull]

UPDATE: The "blue line creep" apparently doesn't occur on all first/last quarter moon nights apparently.  The date I had when I first observed it was a last quarter moon date (12 July 1944).  When I checked the following first quarter moon date (28 July 1944), the "blue line creep" didn't occur and in fact the Max Effective range reported was a steady 399m (cf: at least 2845m during last quarter moon on 12 July 1944).

 

PS: I just check the following last quarter moon date after 12 July 1944 lands on the 11 August 1944.  Checking LOS on that date the blue line is solid at 3107m (cf. 2854m).

 

Is CM basing the moon phases on something other than what is being reported here: http://www.calendar-12.com/moon_calendar/1944/august

Edited April 5, 2015 by Lt Bull

[sburke]

OK, I can see what you were trying to say NOW, but I think you lost me back at post #18.  

 

I never claimed to have explained it well.

 

[dragonwynn]

Hey guys. This is the first I have read this thread and it seems to be from the Breakthrough battle from my Cross of Iron campaign. As I always play turn based and not real time all my campaigns are designed to be played from that perspective. I didn't think to add that into the campaign description.

The battle in question is obviously a night battle in misty conditions and was designed to create a tense situation where both sides are "blind" so to speak. I did not play test in real time but in turn based and though there are Los game issues I did run into enemy units nearly face to face before the firing started.

I do believe there are game Los issues but in turn based I feel the battle played out as it was designed where under those conditions it would be tough for either side to ID each other.

[A Canadian Cat]

So whats the bug exactly ?

What setting is buggy ?

Mist ?

It appears to be a corner case for really bad visibility and really close proximity. Frankly speaking I do not think many people will run into it very much. I would not characterize any settled as being buggy.

[Lt Bull]

More testing has reveal more oddities.

I thought I was going loony (excuse this other pun).

 

Two things going on here:

 

Load up the following scenario file either as a battle playing as Germans or in the Scenario Editor/"Deploy Axis Units".

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/0d6ub5j8wg2v7mn/NIGHT%20LOS%20CHECK.btt?dl=0

 

Select the single man sniper team at the end of the map.

Drag a LOS line away from him along the map until it changes to the dark blue/pink line (indicating No Line of Sight).

Note the maximum range at which this line is light blue (has clear LOS)

Drag the line no just a few meters beyond this maximum range so that it shows the dark blue/pink line (indicating No Line of Sight).

Wait a few seconds.

This line will soon turn blue indicating LOS

Repeat and it will be possible to have the game report clear LOS to spots anywhere on the map which originally indicated no LOS.

This is the "blue line creep" I observed occurring.

 

Close and reload the scenario.

Repeat the LOS test and note the initial maximum LOS range without trying to get the blue line to creep.

This initial maximum range may be significantly different from when you originally loaded the scenario.  eg.  2925m, 2145m, 3107m,  2854m etc.

Close and reload the scenario to check again if no difference was detected. It seems to be somewhat random each time you load the map after closing it down.

 

Are these intended features of the game?

[fry30]

Ah I'm just glad this was resolved. And my issue with spotting is that I can't really get an intuitive feel for it within the game... I just would actually need to see the mist and the darkness to understand how low my visibility was. Maybe another hotkey (o-god) to give LOS... since it hasn't been included in any of the CMx2 releases, I'd just say maybe another hot key that would just let you know their max visibility. Nope, I think that's still an LOS tool. Really would like one.

 

But super happy that if I ever decided to really mess around with the settings, they'll work as intended.

 

-----

 

If anyone wants to start a PBEM with me in crappy conditions, I might be interested. Been very difficult finding worthy opponents ; P

 

 

PS: I know another tactical, battalion and below sized game that uses this archaic green line that emanates in all directions (to a max of 180 degrees) to show a units field of view when toggled. It looked eh... no better or worse than say a CMx2 target arc... but it was a quick way of figuring out what the conditions (darkness, blizzard) were doing to your units field of vision.

 

The game sucked and rhymed with Rat Dung Stanza, Cooperation Bar. But hey, they did pioneer the use of hit decals among other things.

Edited April 6, 2015 by fry30

[Denis1973]

And again, I encountered the very same problem

Here is the save file

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/2wWWhivgJVLW/Baranovichi%20mod%20075.ema

password: mirai

 

Look at the T-34 at the edge of wood in the center of the map. Panter fires on it in last 10 sec of turn. It fires a HE round to tank commander and newer sow the t-34 itself. WHY???? It it clear view on it - check the camera. But LOS tool is red. I suppose, this is the BUG!!!

Edited April 14, 2015 by Denis1973

[Denis1973]

wrong post

Edited April 14, 2015 by Denis1973

[Vanir Ausf B]

And again, I encountered the very same problem

Here is the save file

https://cloud.mail.ru/public/2wWWhivgJVLW/Baranovichi%20mod%20075.ema

password: mirai

 

Look at the T-34 at the edge of wood in the center of the map. Panter fires on it in last 10 sec of turn. It fires a HE round to tank commander and newer sow the t-34 itself. WHY???? It it clear view on it - check the camera. But LOS tool is red. I suppose, this is the BUG!!!

 

I suppose it is!

 

Or maybe not.

 

You say the Panther "newer sow" the T-34, but if you watch the replay with the Panther selected it clearly does spot the T-34. You say the LOS tool is red (I assume you mean from the Panther to the T-34), but it is actually grey and I can plot a Target command on the T-34.

 

There is some odd behavior that I can't explain. Why does it take about 15 seconds for the Panther to react to the T-34 after spotting it, and why does it fire a HE round instead of AP? I don't know the answers to those questions but this is a very different situation than what is being discussed in this thread.

[Denis1973]

You say the Panther "newer sow" the T-34, but if you watch the replay with the Panther selected it clearly does spot the T-34. You say the LOS tool is red (I assume you mean from the Panther to the T-34), but it is actually grey and I can plot a Target command on the T-34.

You are correct. Panter does spot T-34 as a tank and fired HE shot after 15 sec of "deep thinking". And yes, LOS now is grey, but next turn T-34 disappeared and LOS on it's former place became red.

 

 

 

 but this is a very different situation than what is being discussed in this thread.

Sorry about this, I think that this tread is about spotting issues...

[Vanir Ausf B]

The reason the target line is red to the spot where the tank was is that the Panther has no line of sight to the ground it was on.

[Denis1973]

Yea, I understand this. But... It is something in it that I can't catch. Look. If LOS on ground where enemy tank positioned is blue, then in most cases my tank will spot and fired on rival. If LOS is gray/red the chance of spotting (and firing) significantly reduced. So something wrong with how game engine works with target's height. For example, in the same game T-70 have traversed clear field of view from my PzIV. Pz not spotted it. I make a check in editor - if I put a T-70 in this position, LOS from Pz became blue on hull, but gray or red on empty ground beneath T-70. So in game T-70 travel without being spotted.

There is something wrong...   

[A Canadian Cat]

Yea, I understand this. But... It is something in it that I can't catch. Look. If LOS on ground where enemy tank positioned is blue, then in most cases my tank will spot and fired on rival.

OK I am with you so far. Sounds reasonable.  It is not a guarantee by any means but your tank at least has a pretty good chance to spot the enemy - especially if he is there for a while.

 

If LOS is gray/red the chance of spotting (and firing) significantly reduced. So something wrong with how game engine works with target's height.

I do not think so. In your previous example the enemy tank is in full view of your tank. In this case only part of the enemy tank is in view of your tank.  Less of the enemy to see reduced the chance that your tank sees him.  I think that makes sense.  It does not mean your tank has no chance or will never spot the enemy but the chances are reduced.

 

For example, in the same game T-70 have traversed clear field of view from my PzIV. Pz not spotted it. I make a check in editor - if I put a T-70 in this position, LOS from Pz became blue on hull, but gray or red on empty ground beneath T-70. So in game T-70 travel without being spotted.

There is something wrong...

It does not sound like there is a problem here.  If the enemy tank stays there for a while there is a good chance that your tank will eventually spot it.  If it just passes through a location like that it would be easy to miss.

 

Sounds more like you just do not have "perfect pixel troops"^tm.

[kch001]

as far as solutions are concerned would it be reasonable to simply have all stationary non vehicle units spot all vehicle units if they are in an adjacent square, unless there isnt a direct LOS considering clear daylight (.e. not on the other side of a high wall, bockage etc) 

 

The rationale being that even if raining, really dark, then dismounted troops should be able to spot a 40 ton 9 * 3 * 3 object or at least realise that something is there (tank tracks on the ground, smell of exhaust, noise etc etc). 

 

Sorry if it has already been suggested. 

Edited April 23, 2015 by kch001

[womble]

as far as solutions are concerned would it be reasonable to simply have all stationary non vehicle units spot all vehicle units if they are in an adjacent square, unless there isnt a direct LOS considering clear daylight (.e. not on the other side of a high wall, bockage etc) 

 

The rationale being that even if raining, really dark, then dismounted troops should be able to spot a 40 ton 9 * 3 * 3 object or at least realise that something is there (tank tracks on the ground, smell of exhaust, noise etc etc). 

 

Sorry if it has already been suggested. 

Thing is, on a really coal-cellar-dark night with rain pouring down on your kevlar pot and poncho, it's entirely possible to not realise that the vague shape over there 8m away is a truck/APC, not a shed. Until it moves, or does something un-shed-like. The bonus for having once known what it is should, given the most-discussed example in the thread (to my rough recollection), possibly be larger, to the extent of being a thing if it isn't already. But absolutes don't have much place in the rule set.

[fry30]

A really good brain game, whatever you want to call it... for our purposes, a very good exercise for people is to watch people on youtube do a run through of your favorite game. I do it to figure out to solve puzzles (think Silent Hill, Resident Evil), check out upcoming games (!yea!), and generally muck around.

 

For instance, I was watching someone do a run through of the latest Silent Hill game. The game itself is from a 1st person POV, like a First Person Shooter without the gun. And you solve puzzles... think MIST (for you older folk : )

 

I read the comments at the bottom, and all people could do (hey, its youtube) was yell at the guy for missing this clue, that puzzle, this door, this that this that. It got me thinking about how I play video games. Silent Hill, my example, is crap your pants scary; I don't own the game, I don't want to own the game, but if I was playing I can guarantee you I'd miss everything. I'm easily distracted with games like that, and its hard to see when you have your hands covering your eyes. (I won't post a link, but check out Silent Hill P.T. on youtube to see what I mean.)

 

Well what does this long and rambling response have to do with anything?

 

1) I miss "secrets" and all that stuff in games all the time. Sometimes I'm just paying attention to the action. It is a fact that I miss a great lot of what goes on during my WEGO CMRT games. I can rewind it to my hearts content. I still miss stuff.

 

2) Yesterday's trial with the game proved that under duress, I cannot focus. I think the same can be said about anything. Anyone. Your tank commander is, under combat, clearly under stress.

 

In otherwords, people miss things when they are stressed. People miss things when they aren't. People miss things in general.

 

I can't believe I'm even going to post this.