Wiggum15 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Hi,i just played a scenario where a small joint UKR/US force defends a HQ against a Russian attack, i think the name of the scenario was "Alexanders house" or something like that...anyway...The russians had some BTR-80A with the brutal 30mm gun.Throughout the scenario my men run out of buildings who got hammered with the 30mm gun.The problem, there were enemy soldiers and tanks outside so the squads leaving the building got killed instantly !If they had stayed inside the building they may have taken a few wounded but the chance of surviving would have been much higher.In another situation a panicking soldier ran out of a building into another one, that ok, but then he turned and ran outside again into the open...facing a enemy tank !He stayed there and awaited death which came pretty quick...My point is:- panicking squads commit suicide to oftenSoldiers like solid stuff (trees/walls ect.) so they tend to cuddle with this kind of cover.I understand that they want to leave a building getting hit by a 30mm gun repeatedly but why do they run outside, ignore two other buildings next to them and just run into the open towards the enemy.A human reaction would be to stay inside the building and take cover, or at least have a plan like "we get into this other building" or "go behind the APC"...but not to aimlessly run outside into a spot with 0 cover... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 If someone panics are they not, by the very definition of the word acting irrationally and hence do stupid things without thought to the outcome? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) I know that would be the first comment... Does a professional soldier who panics loose all common sense ?There is a difference if someone panics, runs out of a building and gets killed while trying to reach another building or if someone just runs out of a building into to open (and stays there !) where there is zero cover and the air is full of lead anyway. Edited February 15, 2015 by Wiggum15 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 By definition panicking usually precludes logical rational decision making, however I do agree soldiers tend to not view buildings as good cover. When designing Frosty Welcome for the MG module one of the frustrating things was finding an 81 mm mtr barrage on the schoolhouse would effectively cause all the staunch British paras to run out into the street. That is behavior I would love to see change. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) You also have to take into account the psychological effect of being inside a building, surrounded by stone walls.Even if they think its not safe enough anymore inside the building, the last thing they should do is to aimlessly run outside without a clear idea where they will take cover next...and standing in the open while facing a T72 is not my definition of taking cover...At least 2 squads committed suicide that way during my play-through of that mission, although there were more buildings and walls very close they choose to run to a complete open space with 0 cover... Edited February 15, 2015 by Wiggum15 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I know that would be the first comment... Does a professional soldier who panics loose all common sense ? There is a difference if someone panics, runs out of a building and gets killed while trying to reach another building or if someone just runs out of a building into to open (and stays there !) where there is zero cover and the air is full of lead anyway.  People often do irrational things when they panic. One of the reasons people die in fires or similar crises. In terms of wht a panicking soldier might do, takng your example. is run out of the building, finds there is a lot of lead flyind about and just hits the dirt. I might no be commn sense but very likely it is the survival instinct.  Sometimes I have noticed panicking units do other things such as blazing away at any enemy. This will in all probability be highly ineffective fire. That unit is completelly beyond your cntrol. It might help them if you can get leader with a good leadersghip rating closeto the. But sometimes it might jusyt be best o wrie them off for the time being and hope thei squad leader gets control of hem. Even then they are likely to be highly jittery. Morale is a funny old thing 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 You also have to take into account the psychological effect of being inside a building, surrounded by stone walls. Even if they think its not safe enough anymore inside the building, the last thing they should do is to aimlessly run outside without a clear idea where they will take cover next...and standing in the open while facing a T72 is not my definition of taking cover... At least 2 squads committed suicide that way during my play-through of that mission, although there were more buildings and walls very close they choose to run to a complete open space with 0 cover... Â You and I might see it that way. The guys in tha squad might view that building as a death trap and makke the completelyirraional decision to get out of there. They panicked and did something that turned out to be really stupid. That got them klled. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 15, 2015 Author Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) I might no be commn sense but very likely it is the survival instinct.I highly doubt that...Panicking is just the word the game uses for a mental state that gives survival the top priority and no longer cares about orders.You and I might see it that way. The guys in tha squad might view that building as a death trap and makke the completelyirraional decision to get out of there. They panicked and did something that turned out to be really stupid. That got them klled.- Getting out of the building ?Ok !- Running towards the enemy where no cover at all is available ?WTF !- Choosing a spot with zero cover and direct LOS to a enemy T72 ?WTF !- Getting killed by a 120mm HE round from the T72 ?Priceless !That is not panicking, thats being on some bad drugs... Edited February 15, 2015 by Wiggum15 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I think we are looking at two different but in this instance related issues. 1 how are buildings viewed in relation to cover - why would your pixeltruppen exit a building under artillery barrage and seek cover in the open? 2 what do they do when panicking. Panicking implies a state of irrationality that I am afraid to even get in to what we can or should expect. This isn't just cowering or being suppressed, this is a reaction that simply says, my life is at risk right now right here, I have to do "something". That something isn't necessarily going to be smart. Regarding buildings, my paras in Frosty Welcome were not in a panic state, they just apparently decided being outside was better than being inside. Consistently. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Glubokii Boy Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I don't know if this is an entirely different issue but its been my experience in QBs the AIÂ pretty much never possitions troops inside buildings at setup... Â One question that could be raised...Does the AI 'know about'Â and take into considderation the added protection that building gives when setting-up and moving...? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Interestingly I just ran a test utilizing modular buildings and cranked up my paras to elite fanatic. They did not leave the buildings at all. I'll try lowering those settings and see where the break point is, assuming there is one.  Figures. Now that don't seem to want to leave at all even with reduced settings. Not sure if something got tweaked along the way or what. Edited February 15, 2015 by sburke 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican Pal Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 Repsol, that is a scenario design issue. The AI chooses locations based on the strat AI the designer uses. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 No, MarkEzra has been complaining about that for some time. It only affects QBs. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I don't know if this is an entirely different issue but its been my experience in QBs the AI pretty much never possitions troops inside buildings at setup... One question that could be raised...Does the AI 'know about' and take into considderation the added protection that building gives when setting-up and moving...?I don't know if this is an entirely different issue but its been my experience in QBs the AI pretty much never possitions troops inside buildings at setup... One question that could be raised...Does the AI 'know about' and take into considderation the added protection that building gives when setting-up and moving...?QB Maps involving Buildings always are painted to allow AI setup in them, although maybe not all buildings. I have this on good authority since I make them. What you experienced in the past was a Building bug that had no AI controlled units setting up in buildings. That was squashed in CMRT and I have not seen it in CMBS. AI controlled Inf units will seek the use of Buildings in CMBS. The AI seeks good vision as well as concealment. I try to paint maps to encourage just that. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarkEzra Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 No, MarkEzra has been complaining about that for some time. It only affects QBs.No, MarkEzra has been complaining about that for some time. It only affects QBs.I would like to be able to identify unit positions clearly. Something that would allow me to say 'reserved for inf', or 'AT units only' or 'Vehicles allowed here'. But think of what I'm asking for in Programing time. Nothing short of a New Game. One of the most important things I've learned about QB Map making is to use what the game has, rather than moaning about what it hasn't. Since CMSF I've seen a tremendous change in what I can use to make QB's more Challenging. It's my job to improve my work with each title. And yes, I state my case.... just hardly ever here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelican Pal Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 (edited) Ah, I thought the issue was that because QBs have unknown forces the ai setups had to allow for a wider variety of units. And therefore you couldn't say "all infantry should be in these buildings" because you don't know what will be on the map. Â What I've seen is that men abandon building more often in a lull in the firing. So after chucking 3-4 75mm HE shells I stop firing and the enemy will take the opportunity to vacate the position. If you have sustained fire they are much less likely to. Edited February 15, 2015 by Pelican Pal 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted February 15, 2015 Share Posted February 15, 2015 I would like to be able to identify unit positions clearly. Something that would allow me to say 'reserved for inf', or 'AT units only' or 'Vehicles allowed here'. But think of what I'm asking for in Programing time. Nothing short of a New Game. One of the most important things I've learned about QB Map making is to use what the game has, rather than moaning about what it hasn't. Since CMSF I've seen a tremendous change in what I can use to make QB's more Challenging. It's my job to improve my work with each title. And yes, I state my case.... just hardly ever here.  From early CMSF day the quality of QBs in general has ... vastly improved. CMBS QB Maps are light years ahead. I have 330 QB maps sitting in my stock CMBS folder!  QB's are meant to be "fun" vs AI. QBs are a lot more fun today than early CMSF days.  Substantial CM gaming challenges are best accomplished via H2H or PBEM. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 I think we are looking at two different but in this instance related issues.1 how are buildings viewed in relation to cover - why would your pixeltruppen exit a building under artillery barrage and seek cover in the open?2 what do they do when panicking.Panicking implies a state of irrationality that I am afraid to even get in to what we can or should expect. This isn't just cowering or being suppressed, this is a reaction that simply says, my life is at risk right now right here, I have to do "something". That something isn't necessarily going to be smart.Regarding buildings, my paras in Frosty Welcome were not in a panic state, they just apparently decided being outside was better than being inside. Consistently.Again, Panicking in the military term is not a state of complete irrationality. It describes a state were the soldiers no longer care about orders or a victory on the battlefield, they only want to survive. This can get them killed but that does not mean that Panicking soldiers should show suicidal behavior, especially when inside buildings.The "lets get out of the building and stay in the open" thing is really annoying...if the Tac-AI at least would navigate them into some other good cover... 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted February 16, 2015 Share Posted February 16, 2015 (edited) Again, Panicking in the military term is not a state of complete irrationality. It describes a state were the soldiers no longer care about orders or a victory on the battlefield, they only want to survive. This can get them killed but that does not mean that Panicking soldiers should show suicidal behavior, especially when inside buildings. The "lets get out of the building and stay in the open" thing is really annoying...if the Tac-AI at least would navigate them into some other good cover... If they are under such heavy fire they think the building is a deathtrap and the unit panics they might just decide to get the h""" out of there. Sometimes however I have seen infantry squads decide to simply stay put. I wouldn't worry too much about it. You are typically a Company or Combat Team commander in this game, not usually a 2nd Lieutenent commading a platoon. Edited February 16, 2015 by LUCASWILLEN05 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wiggum15 Posted February 16, 2015 Author Share Posted February 16, 2015 The whole idea of the 1/1 presentation of the game is that the player cares about the action down to the individual soldier. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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