c3k vs Bil: an XAR of some sort in the woods. With submachineguns. And blood.

[c3k]

Yeah, a bit of fun.

The body shop (a great one, btw) with fast turn times, needed 5 weeks to repair the damage and repaint it. That was a bit of a record for them. In a bad way.

[Andrew H.]

So you were too busy being lured into a real life kill sack to have time to be lured into a CM-style kill sack?

[Vanir Ausf B]

That’s when someone fired a handgun towards us from ~400 yards. Now, those of you who are familiar with firearms know that it is pretty easy to determine weapon type and range from the sound. This was definitely on the order of a 9mm. 400 yards is a long way for that round, despite what we see in CM. The firer was either ignorant of his weapon’s ballistic characteristics or was just giving us a friendly warning. The bullet did not come near us.

Thank god it wasn't a PPSh. You would've never known what hit you.

[Michael Emrys]

holy s**t dude.

My sentiments exactly. I am going with the interpretation that you are not making the whole story up solely because this is the kind of crazy world where that kind of thing—or more accurately, constellation of things—happen with depressing frequency. Glad the bullet missed and that your wife is maybe acquiring some tactical sense. May that trend continue.

Re the vandals: I have personally encountered that kind of pointless maliciousness many times in my own life, and I confess it has crossed my mind now and then that it should be classified as a capital crime, just because the kind of person who commits is so often completely incorrigible. They will forever perform spiteful acts of malice so long as they have the energy to do so. In such cases it can be hard to find a reason to keep them alive.

Michael

[Childress]

Quite a story, Ken. I've looked down the barrel of a gun twice here in LA. Once by a jittery off-duty cop in the neighborhood while the wife and I were inspecting his cool SUV late at night. The second time by a gang-banger in a liquor store. Hand trembling (must have been a noob), he jammed the pistol hard against my temple. Fortunately I had had the wherewithal to hide the bulk of the cash while he was attending to the other 6 or 7 victims lying face down on the floor.

[Michael Emrys]

The second time by a gang-banger in a liquor store. Hand trembling (must have been a noob), he jammed the pistol hard against my temple. Fortunately I had had the wherewithal to hide the bulk of the cash while he was attending to the other 6 or 7 victims lying face down on the floor.

This reminds me of my favorite. Some years ago on YouTube there was a clip from the security camera in a convenience store. A guy steps up to the counter to hold up the place and pulls out a large automatic. But he must have been nervous because he fumbles the grab and the gun goes flying up in the air. The beautiful thing is that it flies towards the guy behind the counter, who fields it nicely, turns it around and points it at our would-be felon, who immediately panics and runs out the store, leaving his pistol behind. Instant karma.

Michael

[Macisle]

holy s**t dude...

My reaction, too.

Man, I sure am glad you and your family are okay. You know, after spending a large chunk of the last two decades living in the UK and now Japan, the US seems depressingly like a warzone. Violent crimes that are passing weekend news in any major US city would be like, week-long national news events in Japan.

Not sure what the stats really are, but I remember reading about a decade ago that the number of gun-related deaths in the US every two years is roughly equivalent to the total US military fatalities suffered during the entirety of the Vietnam war. That's just C-R-A-Z-Y.

I'm not intending to be political on a hot-button issue here. Just commenting on how sad it is that there are that many people willing to commit the crimes (and a media addicted to the show, along with dumb drug policy that fuels that gangs).

But I will say, having experienced what it is like to live in perhaps the safest country in the world, that the feeling of not needing firearms is one of the most wonderful feelings of freedom in the world. Pure gold and I hope it never changes.

Again, I'm not trying to be anti-gun in a current political sense. I've owned and shot them in the past. Rather, I'm just saying that when you are able to step outside current US culture and look at it as an objective observer, words like "sad" and "INSANE" come to the mind and tongue pretty easily.

Anyway, I hope you guys get what you need to stay safe and do just that, c3k.

[LukeFF]

But I will say, having experienced what it is like to live in perhaps the safest country in the world, that the feeling of not needing firearms is one of the most wonderful feelings of freedom in the world. Pure gold and I hope it never changes.

Again, I'm not trying to be anti-gun in a current political sense. I've owned and shot them in the past. Rather, I'm just saying that when you are able to step outside current US culture and look at it as an objective observer, words like "sad" and "INSANE" come to the mind and tongue pretty easily.

You're not trying to be politically anti-gun, but you decided to be anyways?

Oh, and the vast majority of gun-related deaths in the U.S. are the result of gang activity. Period.

[Macisle]

Oh, and the vast majority of gun-related deaths in the U.S. are the result of gang activity. Period.

Yup. The lessons that should haven been learned from the failed Prohibition experiment are having to be learned again.

[c3k]

Thanks for the kind words. I certainly don't compare this one long shot to being held up! Kinda hard to dodge a bullet when the muzzle is pressed to one's temple.

My alternative plan had been a 3 car team. Wife and I in 1, Son #1 in car 2 tasked with keeping our exit wedged open and providing overwatch. Son #2 orbiting in car 3 several blocks away to provide reaction force. All appropriately gunned up and in comms.

But I didn't want to unnecessarily worry the wife.

[Macisle]

Lest I accidentally throw a bag of guano into the sandblasting machine, let me clarify where I'm coming from on guns.

By my statement, I was not intending to attack gun ownership in and of itself. Rather, I was lamenting that the US has moved from a state where owning one was a choice to one where it is quickly becoming a necessity. And that IS a sad loss of freedom. People tend to think about the freedom to own a gun, but there is the freedom to be able to safely not own one, too. Here where I live, in a city of half a million, the norm is to go a full day and not even see a police car!

But please don't box me into the current 2-dimensional US political dynamic. If I lived there, I would own one. And, if someone broke into my house, I would shoot to kill. No hesitation. No guilt (well, for the carpet...).

However, I still think it is wonderful to have a society where you don't NEED to do that. I think it is a worthy goal. No apologizing for thinking it's a great way to live. And having lived in the UK and Japan, I have NOT seen a loss of political freedom coming from the way they do things. That really surprised me in the early years of experiencing it.

But neither am I advocating such a system for the USA of 2014. Focusing on guns alone is not going to solve the violence problem and that’s not really where the effort needs to go. I am in complete agreement with LukeFF that gang violence (and glorification of same) is the primary cause. I LOATHE anything gang-related. Scourge of the planet, frankly. But, we can thank horrible, myopic drug war policy for that. To be anything more than playground toughs, gangs need a product, and they have been given the best environment they could wish for to flourish and thrive. We should have learned that from Prohibition.

For the last half-century the US been treating the societal equivalent of a rash on its bum (drug-use) with medicine that is a kind of lethal slow-release poison (the drug war). I dream of a world where kids can make more money flipping burgers than selling drugs—and one where an addiction leads to medical treatment and not a prison cell.

Okay. That’s it for my soapbox. I just wanted to clarify on my gun statement. I’ll put a sock in it now.

[c3k]

Ditto the sentiments on wanton vandals.

[Macisle]

Ditto the sentiments on wanton vandals.

Yeah. The last apartment we lived in in the US, we paid almost 1K a month in a pretty nice area and my wife's car had the window knocked out twice in a year. We counted almost ten instances of neighbor's cars being damaged or stolen in the area over two years.

A friend in Baltimore had his place broken into and was told by the police that they basically don't even do anything about theft anymore. It's all about drugs (which I actually hate, too. I'm just looking for solutions that would work).

[daft]

With warts and all, I'm pretty happy to live in Sweden. Guns aren't really a major issue (although we did have a shooting in my city some months ago, so gun related incidents are on the up I think) and violent crimes isn't really something you regularly have to deal with or face personally. I'm not sure we are heading in the right direction, a lot of things will have to change in order for Sweden to become an even better place to live, but in comparison with the above incident, we have it good.

[astano]

You know, after spending a large chunk of the last two decades living in the UK and now Japan, the US seems depressingly like a warzone. Violent crimes that are passing weekend news in any major US city would be like, week-long national news events in Japan.

Not sure what the stats really are, but I remember reading about a decade ago that the number of gun-related deaths in the US every two years is roughly equivalent to the total US military fatalities suffered during the entirety of the Vietnam war. That's just C-R-A-Z-Y.

...

But I will say, having experienced what it is like to live in perhaps the safest country in the world, that the feeling of not needing firearms is one of the most wonderful feelings of freedom in the world. Pure gold and I hope it never changes.

Again, I'm not trying to be anti-gun in a current political sense. I've owned and shot them in the past. Rather, I'm just saying that when you are able to step outside current US culture and look at it as an objective observer, words like "sad" and "INSANE" come to the mind and tongue pretty easily.

At the risk of further derailing the thread into political territory, I just wanted to point out that although this sort of thing (and gun-related violence generally) does happen in some areas, it's not the case that everywhere in the US is basically an active warzone or even has much crime of any sort. Depending on who's statistics you look at, most of the murder and violent crime in the States is concentrated in a relative handful of urban areas, and most of the US doesn't really have this kind of crime to the point where you "need" to own a gun for your protection. It may be true of some areas, but not by any means everywhere.

For example, I live about half an hour from Akron, OH which (if I remember correctly) within the last few years had one of the highest murder rates per capita in the country. The town I live in, on the other hand, hasn't had a murder in about 15 years. Even burglaries are relatively rare here and only happen when people are home if the crooks screwed up and miscalculated the likelihood of people to be present. So while I do own firearms, including for self-defense, I definitely don't feel like I need to. Even with going into Akron on a daily basis, which I've done now for four years, I don't feel compelled to own or carry a gun.

I'm not disputing that there are some really violent areas, or that there are some places where you might truly need to own a gun for personal protection, but I wanted to point at that it's not universal.

At any rate, good to hear you and yours are okay, c3k.

[Thomm]

The first impression I got from downtown Chicago when I arrived there for a conference (I even think it was my first trip to the USA, ever) was:

I am going down an escalator and watch a woman going up on the other side. The only other two persons present were two men who moved right behind her and started to dig in her bag. She was obviously unaware, because she did not defend herself or confronted them in any way.

Well, the guys looked at me, I looked at them. Given their physical appearance and being unaware of the local customs, I decided not to shout a warning.

And everybody moved their way, unharmed. I think this was the only time I actually witnessed a crime.

Best regards,

Thomm

[Fizou]

With warts and all, I'm pretty happy to live in Sweden. Guns aren't really a major issue (although we did have a shooting in my city some months ago, so gun related incidents are on the up I think) and violent crimes isn't really something you regularly have to deal with or face personally. I'm not sure we are heading in the right direction, a lot of things will have to change in order for Sweden to become an even better place to live, but in comparison with the above incident, we have it good.

We have it good in Sweden for several reasons but one thing that I am pretty disturbed about is our justice apparatus. The average sentence for a man who murders his wife/girlfriend is only 6-12 years in prison.

[sburke]

One thing to note from here in the gun toting west- Violent crime is steadily decreasing year over year. Why, no idea, but I have heard of one researcher who has tried to statistically tie it to Roe v Wade and the legalization of abortion. Is there anything to that, hell if I know I have not seen the research nor would I likely be able to validate/invalidate it. Point is a good part of the news is hype and media hysteria because that sells. There are a lot of stereotypes about the source of violent crimes/homicides and gangs. We have lots of TV shows to reinforce those myths and a news media that thinks news is repeating with lots of kewl graphics what people want to hear or already believe regardless of whether it is true.

The homicide rate per 100,000 people in 2010 was roughly the same as in the 1950s. You'd never know that from the media though and the gun lobby plays it's part in that hype. You think the average person is gonna feel the need to go out and get a gun if they think society is actually getting safer?

To get an accurate picture, the best place to go is FBI and Dept of Justice reporting. The true tragedy in gun violence is that it disproportionally affects the young. The "optimal" age to be killed by a handgun is 17. The reasons for that are very complicated and have more to do with societal issues than actual gun ownership.

I have lived in urban environments since I was 16. I finished high school in an impoverished neighborhood of Brooklyn and was one a of a small minority of white kids there having moved from suburban Phila. One teacher had been shot the year before over a grade issue so I expected the worst. I never had any issues there and I have never felt the need to carry a gun and never saw an instance where having one was going to result in anything more than an escalation of tragedy. I have been involved in a fair number of attempted muggings - I lived between Brooklyn and Wash DC throughout the 1980s, the worst era for gun violence and homicide in the US. Never once considered buying a gun.

I now live in walking distance from downtown San Jose and have never felt safer. My advice- stop watching the news media to understand the dynamics of poverty, guns, homicide and gang activity in the US. The media rarely has any interest in truly educating people, they need to sell stories. Watch the Fox news week on "Spring Break" if you want a clearer picture- they spent days talking about how bad it was for kids, the drinking, sex, where are the parents etc etc and then spent a couple days regaling each other about the great time they had on spring break drinking having sex etc. As Bugs Bunny would say "what a maroon."

[Michael Emrys]

One thing to note from here in the gun toting west- Violent crime is steadily decreasing year over year. Why, no idea, but I have heard of one researcher who has tried to statistically tie it to Roe v Wade and the legalization of abortion.

There could be something in that. The theory that I found most credible goes like this. Violent crimes are mostly committed by young men. During the 1970s and '80s there was a bulge in the numbers of that age group compared to the rest of the population. But now that generation has aged and mellowed out either through attrition or being locked up. There may simply not be as many young men in the current generation daring each other to do stupid things.

FWIW

Michael

[wamphyri]

In waiting for the next iteration of this XAR I'll chime in quickly on the subject that seems to have cropped up.

There has been a bit of talk recently about how lead from gasoline had caused crime rates to rise. Accourding to the study done, the rise and fall of crime rates has followed lead exposure with a 20 year lag, so now that lead has been removed from gasoline many years ago the crime rate has been declining. Here is a report on the whole thing. The graph near the end is interesting.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27067615

[sburke]

In waiting for the next iteration of this XAR I'll chime in quickly on the subject that seems to have cropped up.

There has been a bit of talk recently about how lead from gasoline had caused crime rates to rise. Accourding to the study done, the rise and fall of crime rates has followed lead exposure with a 20 year lag, so now that lead has been removed from gasoline many years ago the crime rate has been declining. Here is a report on the whole thing. The graph near the end is interesting.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27067615

LOL that is why most violent crime appears at NASCAR events...

Actually that does look kind of interesting. I had a friend who was a psychologist and worked on lead paint studies back it the late 70s/early 80s. At the time there was no linkage in that to the effects of leaded gasoline. Wonder what he would think of this now.

[Michael Emrys]

There has been a bit of talk recently about how lead from gasoline had caused crime rates to rise. Accourding to the study done, the rise and fall of crime rates has followed lead exposure with a 20 year lag, so now that lead has been removed from gasoline many years ago the crime rate has been declining. Here is a report on the whole thing. The graph near the end is interesting.

http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-27067615

There was an extensive article in Mother Jones last year as well. The case for linkage appears to have some pretty good evidence. High levels of lead in the blood lead to general mental retardation, learning disabilities and behavioral disorders.

Michael

[sfhand]

Ken, was the building you ran to on the edge of the map? I thought so... I'm glad no one got hurt and I hope the insurance company pays for the rehabilitation of the car. And yes, I am still hopeful of playing a game with you at some point

[sburke]

There was an extensive article in Mother Jones last year as well. The case for linkage appears to have some pretty good evidence. High levels of lead in the blood lead to general mental retardation, learning disabilities and behavioral disorders.

Michael

So one has to ask, is the cesspool full of leaded gas? Never mind I'll go check.

[Childress]

The true tragedy in gun violence is that it disproportionally affects the young. The "optimal" age to be killed by a handgun is 17. The reasons for that are very complicated and have more to do with societal issues than actual gun ownership.

Yes it usually affects the young. Always has. I'll take a shot at the 'reasons'. (risking a forum ban) Gun violence, in fact homicides in general, is concentrated in the US among the underclass. Notably the black, urban underclass although the kid who jacked us in the liquor store was Hispanic. 's been proved that the best predictor of violence isn't poverty, discrimination or historical grievances its the absence of a father in the home. The underclass married the welfare state decades ago rendering Dad a vestigial organ. Racist? Not at all. It's been shown that whites who grow up in fatherless homes suffer precisely the same incarceration rates as fatherless blacks or Hispanics.

Another unpleasant fact re guns:democracy historically took root in societies characterized by the presence of well-armed, yeoman farmers and, yes, slavery. The United States, the Roman republic and Greece for example. The first task of a totalitarian regime is to separate the citizens from their weapons. As happened in Rome as the Empire and its expanding bureaucracy gained power at the expense of the middle classes.