Erik Springelkamp Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 Because I have lived in Nijmegen, I wanted to look at the Nijmegen City Mastermap, but it proved to be too large for my computer system. After giving it a long time to load (I went out shopping), it had loaded something, but the user interface was green and purple, and the map itself was showing grey goo, in which I vaguely recognized the Nijmegen city plan and the bridges. Fortunately the map could be loaded into the scenario editor and there I could admire the map, but unfortunately my former house was just off map (and my other former home in that area, in Beek, was just off the map of the Devil's Hill, but also that map had some recognizable features). Anyway, I am curious what kind of systems can and cannot load that large a map. My system: Windows XP 32bit, 4 GB RAM, videocard 1GB ATI. I will upgrade next week to Windows 7 64bit on the same hardware, and I hope the 64bit OS will give me a little bit more RAM in user space, although I understand that CM is a 32 bit program. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ASL Veteran Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 If you are having trouble loading the map in 3D mode you can always go into the editor and trim it. Just be sure to rename the map something else so you don't permanently crop the original map. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 If you are having trouble loading the map in 3D mode you can always go into the editor and trim it. Just be sure to rename the map something else so you don't permanently crop the original map. I could walk it in 3D in the preview mode of the scenario editor. Loading in 2D was very fast, but opening the 3D view took very long (I think over 15 minutes). After that moving around in the map was not too bad though, and some places seemed rather familiar - others have changed quite a bit since then. But it failed to load from the Battle Menu. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 25, 2014 Share Posted March 25, 2014 I could walk it in 3D in the preview mode of the scenario editor. Loading in 2D was very fast, but opening the 3D view took very long (I think over 15 minutes). After that moving around in the map was not too bad though, and some places seemed rather familiar - others have changed quite a bit since then. But it failed to load from the Battle Menu. Well the battle menu does a few things the scenario editor 3D mode does not. The battle menu requires calculating LOS and loading all the units so it is needing quite a bit more oomph. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted March 25, 2014 Author Share Posted March 25, 2014 Well the battle menu does a few things the scenario editor 3D mode does not. The battle menu requires calculating LOS and loading all the units so it is needing quite a bit more oomph. I understand. This is the first time I ran into a scenario that I couldn't load, for all CM2 games, even though I just upgraded RAM from 2 to 4 GB. So I posted this because I am curious if other people have run into limits, and with what system specs. And I know the Mastermap is not meant to be played, but I suppose for Russia people will create some very large maps. And I like large maps with real movement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 No fear, Erik! I had the same problem with MG's larger maps and scenarios...never did get Frost at the Bridge to load, let alone play. BUT.... I was lucky enough to be invited to beta test scenarios for Red Thunder, and the good news is BFC managed to tweak things so that large maps and scenarios are no problems for me anymore (my system specs are close to yours). I built a scenario for myself just to see what my system could handle...it had 4 Russian battalions, plus several independent SMG companies and tank company(+) attacking a dug in (hundreds of foxholes, trenches and wire sections, all tolled) German battalion in a village on a large map (about 2km x 2km) and although load and save game times are a bit long, it runs beautifully! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted March 28, 2014 Author Share Posted March 28, 2014 Good to hear! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 No fear, Erik! I had the same problem with MG's larger maps and scenarios...never did get Frost at the Bridge to load, let alone play. BUT.... I was lucky enough to be invited to beta test scenarios for Red Thunder, and the good news is BFC managed to tweak things so that large maps and scenarios are no problems for me anymore (my system specs are close to yours). I built a scenario for myself just to see what my system could handle...it had 4 Russian battalions, plus several independent SMG companies and tank company(+) attacking a dug in (hundreds of foxholes, trenches and wire sections, all tolled) German battalion in a village on a large map (about 2km x 2km) and although load and save game times are a bit long, it runs beautifully! Woah! That's a big game. It's a bit boggling, actually... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 28, 2014 Share Posted March 28, 2014 Yep. I'm currently playtesting a mission in one of the CMRT campaigns that is on a map over 6 square kilometers in area, with about a battalion each of infantry and tanks on one side. Every time I've checked system memory CMRT has been using just over 1 GB. Frame rates are playable on Improved/Best with shadows on. And I'm playing on a 4-year old laptop 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Wait, you guys are still playtesting? Release then is not so near eh. But the good nrws is the optimisation one! Wohoooo. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Vanir's comments reminds me to add that I have all my CM games at full "Best" settings, and still don't have any OOM or other problems with big scenarios. Hister, my understanding is that testing of scenarios continues past the release date for a bit, I suppose to see if any little things crop up for the inevitable patch to follow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Oh I see, thanx mkkerner! This week it is then. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
benpark Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I'm the person that built the Nijmegen map for CM:MG. I'm happy that you can recognize features in it. The central area was pretty worked over by the bombing, so I'd expect that will be a large area of difference (and modern structures). You will see a number of very, very large (and as historically correct as humanly possible) master maps in RT that Pete and I have done as "master maps". These will be less urban, given the nature of the terrain the game is set in. I'm excited to see what happens when we return to places that are built up. I'd suggest changing the settings to "Improved" for this one. The number of buildings is the issue, rather than merely the size of the map. That's a lot of 3D information. The load times for me at that setting are around 10-15 minutes (on a fast machine). That made placing flavor objects a real pain! I would expect there should be some degree of improvement when the engine gets updated. As to playing a huge scenario using the entire map- it might be possible with a very high end system, but I wouldn't enjoy that much going on at once! Maybe something simulating the evening before the main battle, which would involve infiltration and smaller forces might work. I had something like this done at some point in the testing of MG, but it's long lost by now. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mjkerner Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 Benpark and Pete...the maps you guys have done are simply fantastic, and obviously a hell of a lot of work! My hat's off to you two! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 As to playing a huge scenario using the entire map- it might be possible with a very high end system, but I wouldn't enjoy that much going on at once! I would, and one of my goals is to play a huge QB on each of the master maps... after CMBN is updated to engine 3.0and I upgrade from my 4 year old laptop. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I would, and one of my goals is to play a huge QB on each of the master maps... after CMBN is updated to engine 3.0and I upgrade from my 4 year old laptop. When you say "huge", do you mean by the definition of the QB limits, or by the "Buy it in the QB picker and then transfer it to the scenario builder" 20kpoint ian.lesliesque "huge"? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 When you say "huge", do you mean by the definition of the QB limits, or by the "Buy it in the QB picker and then transfer it to the scenario builder" 20kpoint ian.lesliesque "huge"? The former. I haven't done any formal survey, but my impression of those monster-size custom games is that people will only buy a certain amount of infantry no matter how many points you given them to spend, so most of the extra goes into tanks -- often with very high quality crews -- and the resulting battles are armor-heavy slugfests. That's not really my cup of tea. EDITED to add: there is also the fact that even with the new performance optimizations I'm sure it will still be possible to push the game to OOM failure on Windows machines. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 The former. I haven't done any formal survey, but my impression of those monster-size custom games is that people will only buy a certain amount of infantry no matter how many points you given them to spend, so most of the extra goes into tanks -- often with very high quality crews -- and the resulting battles are armor-heavy slugfests. That's not really my cup of tea. You could always restrict the proportion of points to be spent on armour... last time I looked, half the points got you about the next orglevel down of armour to infantry, so a company of armour to go with a battalion of infantry. Or thereabouts. EDITED to add: there is also the fact that even with the new performance optimizations I'm sure it will still be possible to push the game to OOM failure on Windows machines. I'm sure it will, but a Battalion each of infantry and tanks is more points than a Huge game offers you by default, and it handles that on your current system. Not that I'm trying to pressurise or anything, just exploring the limits you've found; if you don't want to go "supersize", there's no point me trying to persuade. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I'm not entirely opposed to the idea, I'm just not sure if the extra effort involved is worth it. I'm hoping that at some point BFC allows force adjustment for BOTH sides in a QB instead of just the one at present. You could then do something very close to a 20,000 pt game (over 17,000 in a ME) without any third party involvement. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 I'm not entirely opposed to the idea, I'm just not sure if the extra effort involved is worth it. I'm hoping that at some point BFC allows force adjustment for BOTH sides in a QB instead of just the one at present. You could then do something very close to a 20,000 pt game (over 17,000 in a ME) without any third party involvement. Ar. Or just have a "Bigger" setting above Huge that lets you type in the points value and then does the arithmetic for the battle type so that each side gets the appropriate balance of points. The reason I suspect it's "worth it" is that "just a Battalion" will slosh around on a map that size and you might end up hardly finding any of the enemy to bring to battle! It would be disappointing if you wound up fighting 3 separate platoon sized actions over the space of a couple of game-hours, while the rest of your forces failed to find the diffuse enemy! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 That could be a concern on a few of the largest ones. Most of the master maps are not really all that huge. Nijmegen City MM is 5.5 km², Nijmegen West is 3.4 km² and Nijmegen Road Bridge is less than 1 km². The other master maps are around 6, give or take a km². I haven't even looked at the RT master maps, but from comments I've read I expect they may be somewhat larger, particularly given their rural environment which hits the hardware more gently than urban landscapes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 That could be a concern on a few of the largest ones. Most of the master maps are not really all that huge. Nijmegen City MM is 5.5 km², Nijmegen West is 3.4 km² and Nijmegen Road Bridge is less than 1 km². The other master maps are around 6, give or take a km². Ah, not such a likely problem then, 'specially with VLs to give a tactical focus. I haven't even looked at the RT master maps, but from comments I've read I expect they may be somewhat larger, particularly given their rural environment which hits the hardware more gently than urban landscapes. I don't know about that. My rig starts to creak and groan and spout steam when the wild outdoors is very wooded... It's okay with trees off, though that would be a waste with the new RT pretty trees. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 30, 2014 Share Posted March 30, 2014 The largest map that I have isn't even a master map. It's George MC's "Rolling Hills, rivers and villages" map (it's on the Repository). That sucker is over 10 km², but features sparse vegetation. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warts 'n' all Posted April 2, 2014 Share Posted April 2, 2014 Erik, perhaps you know the answer to this. I've been watching a short clip of the Hunner Park mission on youtube. There is a location marked in red lettering called "le Pont du Neuville". That sounds a bit French to me. I can't find it on any map of Nijmegen past or present. Does such a place exist? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted April 2, 2014 Author Share Posted April 2, 2014 Erik' date=' perhaps you know the answer to this. I've been watching a short clip of the Hunner Park mission on youtube. There is a location marked in red lettering called "le Pont du Neuville". That sounds a bit French to me. I can't find it on any map of Nijmegen past or present. Does such a place exist?[/quote'] I never heard of this Pont du Neuville, but I have a theory :cool: I found a website about the 505th, and they have fought both in the Hunerpark (that is the old spelling and the way everyone in Nijmegen pronounces it) in Nijmegen, and before in Neuville in France. So maybe a bridge in the Hunerpark (the footbridge over the sunken road?) reminded the soldiers of the 505th of a bridge in Neuville, and maybe they have baptised it Pont du Neuville in their battle reports? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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