MG Nijmegen City Mastermap

[Warts 'n' all]

Thanks Erik

I have read about Neuville-au-Plain in the past. So your theory might be correct. Or perhaps the scenario designer just wanted to see if anyone was paying attention.

[peter thomas]

Benpark, and Springel (is that Springel from over in the BFTB forum, I wonder?) - I was wondering about the scale of the Nijmegan map. It looks smaller than reality to me. maybe something has been said about this and I missed it. If I compare it to street view etc then it looks to be about 25% smaller than reality - is that right? Just wondering. It's still a wonderful map, but I was curious about the scale. Thanks.

Peter

[Erik Springelkamp]

I think the scale is right, and they should be, as the maps are made using actual maps with overlays, so it is much easier to use the right scale than to change it. I compared the distance between the bridges on the south side, and it was about 1 km both in Google Maps and in the scenario editor.

However, streets are often wider in Combat Mission maps than in reality, so building blocks become smaller. Also, there has been quite a bit of change in the city centre since 1944.

When I looked at the game map, there were many similarities to my memories, like the general look from the North, with the bridges, and the central part of the Hunerpark, but the station for example is much smaller on the map than it is now, but it probably was at the time.

(yes, I am on the BFTB forum as well, Peter, of course HTTR was of great interest to me, especially since I lived in Beek for 8 years)

[peter thomas]

Great. Thanks Springel. You still in Holland? I'm just down the road in Brussels - one of the reasons MG and HTTR fascinate me too, I guess.

Peter

[Erik Springelkamp]

Great. Thanks Springel. You still in Holland? I'm just down the road in Brussels - one of the reasons MG and HTTR fascinate me too, I guess.

Peter

See my signature, I am in Groningen.

<rant>

But we don't call the country Holland here , Holland is the Western part, the former County of Holland.

And all of Market Garden didn't happen in Holland but in the Netherlands, in the Provinces of Brabant and Gelderland (and a bit of Limburg).

Holland is to Groningen or Limburg like England is to Scotland or Wales.

</rant>

[peter thomas]

Interesting. Never knew that. Thanks. English parochialism, I guess. We are used to calling The Netherlands either that or 'Holland'. The word 'Holland' means 'The Netherlands' in English, perhaps unfortunately if there are sensitivities about it. But now I'm wiser I will adjust my usage.....

Now my 'rant'......'England' and 'Scotland' and 'Wales' are not counties, they're countries, actual nations, with nationality attaching, each one different, 2 of them with utterly different legal systems too, but all with the status of nations/countries that entered into a unity of nations way back when (shortly to be dissolved, perhaps, when Scotland might become a separate nation again). Perhaps only your English was wrong (in which case, sorry again, as I have no Dutch [as we call the language] at all!!)? Did you mean that the United Kingdom of the Netherlands is composed of the nations of Groningen, Limburg, Holland etc? Or are they - as you in fact said - only counties? In which case the analogy doesn't hold. )

[Lethaface]

Holland was a county in the past, Utrecht a diocese, Brabant and Gelre Duchy's, etc (not that there is any real difference between those terms ). Netherlands is the current nation state that bonds all people living in it's provinces. Doesn't mean they are more alike compared to people from different nations in the United Kingdom

Anyhow I don't think it means anything. I'm genetically from Limburg as both of my parents came from there, but met each other in Utrecht. So by birth I'm Utrechter. And by conviction I'm cosmopolitan

[Erik Springelkamp]

Interesting. Never knew that. Thanks. English parochialism, I guess. We are used to calling The Netherlands either that or 'Holland'. The word 'Holland' means 'The Netherlands' in English, perhaps unfortunately if there are sensitivities about it. But now I'm wiser I will adjust my usage.....

Now my 'rant'......'England' and 'Scotland' and 'Wales' are not counties, they're countries, actual nations, with nationality attaching, each one different, 2 of them with utterly different legal systems too, but all with the status of nations/countries that entered into a unity of nations way back when (shortly to be dissolved, perhaps, when Scotland might become a separate nation again). Perhaps only your English was wrong (in which case, sorry again, as I have no Dutch [as we call the language] at all!!)? Did you mean that the United Kingdom of the Netherlands is composed of the nations of Groningen, Limburg, Holland etc? Or are they - as you in fact said - only counties? In which case the analogy doesn't hold. )

No analogy will hold up when it is with the British, because everything there is unique and very weird

The Netherlands is one country in Europe, but it is also has some weirdness: the Kingdom of the Netherlands also contains some islands in the Caribbean, which can have a different currency, language and laws.

Groningen has never been a County. It was once a 'Lordship' in a personal union with other provinces of the Low Countries under the rule of the Habsburg that was also King of Spain, and after the Dutch Revolt it became a sovereign province in the Republic of the Seven United Provinces. The provinces had their own laws and government, and only defence and foreign affairs were conducted by the Republic. In the Middle Ages Holland had been a County, Gelderland a Duchy, Utrecht a bishopric, etc, and the province of Groningen was a merger of the City with the free Frisian 'farmer republics' to the North. All were part of the Holy Roman Empire.

The British have never cared much about names of foreign countries: in the Middle Ages they called their closest Germans (Deutschen) 'Dutch', a name they then associated with Holland and then they associated Holland with the Republic. Who cares about details of foreigners?

And because the centre of gravity of foreign relations in the Netherlands was inside Holland, they never discouraged the foreigners to call the country Holland, as Holland has always strived to dominate the country, the bastards .

But the Dutch people in the Eastern half will mostly consider Holland to be only a part of the Netherlands, and not their part.

The analogy of England works however, because the English are also the bastards that dominate the UK, and also don't mind the UK being called England.

[peter thomas]

Lol. But I think it's the Scottish that dominate, actually.....looking at key positions of power currently and historically.

It's not just the English who don't care about the name of your country by the way. My wife's Finnish and they call it Hollanti, I believe. I'm sure there are others too. No one cares, Springel, that's the truth.....

[benpark]

I was wondering about the scale of the Nijmegan map.

Peter

It should be to scale. It's based on period map and aerial recon photos (from a few days before the battle itself). It should be pretty close to the real location down to the individual buildings. I tried very hard to be faithful to the block sizes, etc.. I used as many period photographs as I could find of the city as well. There was a massive amount of effort on my part to do it right.

There are always bound to be a few discrepancies due to the available methods of placing things in a believable manner, though! Keeping the roads straight (ie. not zig-zag) and the ways that we have available to make blocks of structures creates a few minor differences.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Lol. But I think it's the Scottish that dominate, actually.....looking at key positions of power currently and historically.

It's not just the English who don't care about the name of your country by the way. My wife's Finnish and they call it Hollanti, I believe. I'm sure there are others too. No one cares, Springel, that's the truth.....

Yes, and also the Germans.

Even when I am just over the border in Eastern Frisia, where the local dialect is identical to that of Groningen, they talk about Holland when they point to Groningen :eek:

I get the urge calling them Prussians in return.

The name of Germany is peculiar as well. Only a few neighbours, like the Dutch, call them 'Duitsers/Deutschen' which is what they call themselves.

The Scandinavians call them Saxons, after their nearest tribe, the French call them Allemannen, after a Western tribe, and the AngloSaxons call them Germans, following the Romans, because they already used Deutschen for the Dutch, and they loved to brag with Latin words.

[peter thomas]

Thanks Benpark. It's a superb map, without a doubt. I think I had the impression the railway bridge was closer than in real life because there's no atmospheric effects to give a sense of distance when you look at the map in the editor. It's a real achievement (and an incomparable improvement in this series) to have maps that really try to be historically accurate. Many thanks for your work.

[peter thomas]

Springel. The Scandinavians? But that would include the Swedes - who actually call Germany Tyskland, not Saxony, or something like that. Ditto the Danes and Norwegians. Surely you can't have meant the Finns - who do call Germany Saksa - because Finland is not part of Scandinavia. It's Nordic. Please. Get your terms right.....

[Warts 'n' all]

Back in the days of Henry VIII. His fourth wife Anne of Cleves was called the Flanders Mare, even though Cleves is nowhere near Flanders. Just because Bruges/Brugge was our main trading partner we thought of the entire Low Countries (including parts of north-western Germany) as "Flanders", and we couldn't be bothered to distinguish between the various duchies, counties etc. So it is no surprise that we think of all Netherlanders as being from Holland today.

[Erik Springelkamp]

Springel. The Scandinavians? But that would include the Swedes - who actually call Germany Tyskland, not Saxony, or something like that. Ditto the Danes and Norwegians. Surely you can't have meant the Finns - who do call Germany Saksa - because Finland is not part of Scandinavia. It's Nordic. Please. Get your terms right.....

Who cares...

[Note to self: memory is degrading]