Trying to decide -- CM or ToW, can you help?

[Stevens44]

I'm sort of torn between these two games and wish I could get both of them but I can't. ToW's reported "IL-2 Sturmovik" lineage is attractive, and I like the graphics. I'd choose shiny graphics and a relatively-challenging game over deep gameplay. So I was wondering about pros and cons anyone would care to list.

Two big deciding facts for me are:

1). Which series is pausable.

2). Which series is most likely to expand into the PTO. I'm a big PTO fan and would much rather do Kokoda Trail than Overlord.

Thanks in advance for any input!

[ScoutPL]

For me it comes down to realism and CM wins that hands down. If you want a flashy game with lots of armor running around in open, uncluttered, unrealistic terrain than go for ToW. I havent played it in a few years but it just seemed buggy and clunky to me when I tried. Want a tactical sim that will stress your ability to maneuver squads and platoons? Go for CM. Otherwise stay away.

A pacific tactical sim sounds great but in reality would probably be rather difficult to create and play. I can t imagine what triple canopy jungle would do to your average framerate. Just trying to fight a battle like kokoda trail (which was really a hundred thousand squad and team fights that happened to occur in the same general area, due to the severely restrictive terrain) seems like a player nightmare to me.

My two cents.

[womble]

I'm sort of torn between these two games and wish I could get both of them but I can't. ToW's reported "IL-2 Sturmovik" lineage is attractive, and I like the graphics. I'd choose shiny graphics and a relatively-challenging game over deep gameplay

Wellll, CM has pretty much the deepest gameplay of any game I've ever played. I haven't played any of the Gary Grigsby War in the... series. The barriers to learning are many. The graphics are constrained somewhat by the demands of the scale and detail of the game, but have been improved by the third party modding community.

1). Which series is pausable.

CM's realtime play is pausable, including during HvH play. Or there's the "WeGo" method of play where you issue your units orders during a "mandatory" pause at the top of the minute, then watch how they interpret your commands for the next minute, with the ability to rewind, change viewpoint and freeze the replay as often as you want.

2). Which series is most likely to expand into the PTO. I'm a big PTO fan and would much rather do Kokoda Trail than Overlord.

BFC didn't do the Pacific Theatre in their first iteration of the game (CMBO, CMBB and CMAK, the "CMx1" games). Steve has never seemed very interested in the PTO, and it hasn't even been mentioned as a possibility in the future plans BFC have made us aware of. There's all the earlier OstFront stuff, once Bagration (44-Berlin), and Black Sea have been finished off. Plus the ETO to war-end and the reboot of CMSF. Then there's the African theatre and Battle of France and Poland to do. I think Space Lobsters is on the list ahead of PTO.

Can't say anything about ToW.

[lurrp]

First of all, seeing as you're asking in the CM forum, I expect you'll get a lot of CM votes. CM should be your choice if realism is a top priority. That's what got me into it, and that's what (I think) most people like the most about it. Yes, it looks great and has some neat toys, but the realistic depiction of low-level combined arms tactics is what sells this game for me. It has an incredibly steep learning curve, and requires a good deal of knowledge on the player's part. It, in my humble opinion, is also one of the most rewarding games I've ever played. I can speak to TOW, but it looks similar to games like COH and European Escalation. If those games are your thing, you might like TOW. I've never found the RTS "tactics" games that pretend to be super historical very fun, and the abovementioned games got old quick for me. I would recommend you get Combat Mission (the exact title is up to you), and don't get frustrated. Read up on tactics and historical stuff and learn the ropes. I guarantee that once you pick it up, you will have more fun than StarCraft or COH or any other shallow RTS. My $0.02.

[Stevens44]

OK, thanks. BTW, I'm usually confused by the terms/talk/acronyms y'all use, but am I correct to think that all the Combat Missions are all running under the same hood -- Can I buy the CM2 basegame and play CM1 missions/modules? Or do I have to buy the CM1 base game for those as well?

Too bad about the PTO -- with the exception maybe of deep jungle, there's not much difference between PTO scenery and ETO scenery, between a French or Italian beach and a South Pacific beach, or villages with huts instead of stucco, or the mountainous / snowy terrain in China or Europe. Seems like pushing a few squads down the Kokoda, or establishing a beachhead, would be just up CM's alley. Although the Space Lobsters idea is pretty cool, I'd vote for PTO first!

[kensal]

OK, thanks. BTW, I'm usually confused by the terms/talk/acronyms y'all use, but am I correct to think that all the Combat Missions are all running under the same hood -- Can I buy the CM2 basegame and play CM1 missions/modules? Or do I have to buy the CM1 base game for those as well?

Too bad about the PTO -- with the exception maybe of deep jungle, there's not much difference between PTO scenery and ETO scenery, between a French or Italian beach and a South Pacific beach, or villages with huts instead of stucco, or the mountainous / snowy terrain in China or Europe. Seems like pushing a few squads down the Kokoda, or establishing a beachhead, would be just up CM's alley. Although the Space Lobsters idea is pretty cool, I'd vote for PTO first!

CMx2 is a completely different game to CMx1, so you can't use CMx1 scenarios in CMx2. I can't comment on the ToW game as I don't know it. CMx2 is a very satisfactory experience in my book

[Macisle]

All these games have demos. You should really check them out before making a decision. Here's the BF demo list page:

http://www.battlefront.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=blogcategory&id=0&Itemid=318

I believe that the CMFI demo uses a pretty current CMx2 engine version. Be advised that the CMBN demo uses the 1.10 engine, while the game is currently at version 2.12 and gameplay in it is much improved over 1.10. MGs are much more powerful in v 2.12, for example.

When buying CMBN, you can choose different package options. Some include the v2.0 upgrade package and some leave that off as an optional later addition for $10.

If you get CMBN, you will certainly want to be playing version 2.12. So, be sure to get up to speed on the details of getting it before buying.

Here's another link for a great tutorial for CMBN. It was made for the initial release version, but most of it still applies:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=98844

[MikeyD]

Both have free demos. Both have lots and lots of demos if you want to pick up everything that's offered. Which ranges from fighting as Canadians in a fictional 2007 Syrian war, or fighting a Mujihadeen in the Soviet occupation of Afghanistan, or fighting as Italians in Sicily, or Brits in Normandy.

The good thing about the demos is you can lean how to play without the up-front cash outlay. I've joked that learning to play CM is like learning how to parallel park a stick shift sportcar. No, its not broken or impossible or a cruel trick. Don't worry, you'll get the hang of it and it'll be like second nature to you.

[Vergeltungswaffe]

I'd like to say TOW is checkers and CM is chess, but TOW is tinkertoys and CM is chess.

[Peregrine]

Definitely look at the demos. The German scenario in the CMBN demo is great.

While the engine may not be up to date as someone said above it isn't a radical departure from the most recent version.

As for "pause-able" don't be too quick to right off the we/go mode. It is pretty unique to watch a little movie of the action and worth looking at as you probably haven't seen anything like it before.

[Macisle]

Definitely look at the demos. The German scenario in the CMBN demo is great.

While the engine may not be up to date as someone said above it isn't a radical departure from the most recent version.

As for "pause-able" don't be too quick to right off the we/go mode. It is pretty unique to watch a little movie of the action and worth looking at as you probably haven't seen anything like it before.

Yes, the German scenario in the CMBN demo is very good. You'll want to get your feet wet in the American training scenario first, though.

Oh, and I hope my wording didn't make it sound like the 1.10 gameplay was less than great. It was.

2.12 gameplay is just greatery-great-great, is all. -Plus there are some texture enhancements in the 2.0 upgrade. There are lots of community mods to improve things further as well.

You should definitely give Wego a shot. There is a learning curve to getting the timing of commands right, but it allows you to give intelligent (well, theoretically) commands to all your troops and the video playback capability is wonderful.

[Fenris]

Neither will do Pac as far as I know. It might be modded into ToW maybe. ToW is and has always been an RTS, CM is a tactical strategy game with a real time mode.

As mentioned CM is quite complex. ToW is somewhat less so due to the type of game it is at it's core. I guess one is kind of like a tactical game in 'fun' mode the other 'serious'.

One thing that might be a factor, ToW will cost you much less these days than even the base CMBN game not to mention upgrade and add ons which are kind of essential.

Definitely try the demo's, will show you whats what. Have fun. It'd be hard to not enjoy either (or both).

-F

[Crinius]

I'm sort of torn between these two games and wish I could get both of them but I can't. ToW's reported "IL-2 Sturmovik" lineage is attractive, and I like the graphics. I'd choose shiny graphics and a relatively-challenging game over deep gameplay. So I was wondering about pros and cons anyone would care to list.

Two big deciding facts for me are:

1). Which series is pausable.

2). Which series is most likely to expand into the PTO. I'm a big PTO fan and would much rather do Kokoda Trail than Overlord.

Thanks in advance for any input!

For PTO I would go with John Tillers Squad Battles or his Campaign Series which is currnetly on sale at Matrix.

[Lacroix]

Combat mission (make sure to have 2.0 engine upgrade)

(there are expansions (Commonwealth and Market garden) both are separate entities in terms of units and maps* too i belive

combat mission battle for normandy is a must game for anyone who consider himself to be interested in world war 2. it gives you more understanding how the combat worked which combined with your knowledge of world war 2 and politics can grow into something really good.

ofcourse game is fun as hell. physics of soldiers running is not the best tbh but all the + (positive sides of the game) overwhelm that

realism is what describes CM

--------------------------------------------

Tow is kinda different genre, not really but its much simpler

atrociously few units to choose and maps

only thing tow is better is when you look how your tank's rear gets ripped off and goes in the air.

for that you can watch movie, its not worthy

CM:BN 2.0 , CW , MG ---------- CM FI , CMFI GL

you can spend hundreds of hours, if not thousands and still play

[Skwabie]

I've got all 3 TOW titles and it's not too bad.

The thing I love most is, they are all highly moddable contrary to CM series. There's even a guy that ported everything from tow 1 and 2 into 3. I can adjust everything from what kinda toys a guy in a squad carries to how fast a tank can rotate its hull or turret to a gun's penetration and damage or even add entirely new vehicles/units into the game.

But TOW's biggest problem was "abandonware". Firstly it never acclaimed to much popularity during its peak, and nowadays its support is nil and nobody ever plays it so its community nonexistent.

Secondly, like all Russian made games, or at least the ~a dozen I played, TOW's gameplay is a bit "bland". Once you get the basics down it's not very atmospheric to draw you in further or offer some deep stuff to keep you intrigued like CM. Seemed to me in its later days it was more of a modding platform than an actual gaming one.

However, TOW can still be a fun game, especially for tank vs tank combat. (In comparison CM is much more infantry centric, understandable as CM is made by and many sold to the yanks and friends:p) If I have more free time I'd probably port TOW 1/2 into 3 as well, get some datas right according to Rexford's book and get some armor action going. But that continues to be my wishful thinking atm.. It's a game with good potential but imo never came to full fruition.

[Jock Tamson]

There is room for CM and Graviteam Tactics Operation Star on my PC. When I want to play against the AI, I often turn to the latter.