costard Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 So, who had the biggest dick in the end? Some rich Ukranians paid some corrupt western intelligence community enablers to be double crossed and hung out to dry. The Qatari are being abandoned at double quick rate by everyone scared of the likely retaliation and guilt by association. The US executive has learned that it's model of decentralised intelligence is not only unreliable but can be used against the interests of the US. Anybody care to give odds that the lesson will be acted on? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LUCASWILLEN05 Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Don't forget scenario 2015 Russian army "Blitzkrieg on west", and winter 2015 without Russian gas. Though i guss you could have a scenario where Putin does a modern day version of Czecholslovakia with Ukraine (not that implausible) and then does the same 6thing using Ruassian minorities in Roumania or Poland as an excuse for invading those countries. Hitler used much the same sort of excuse during the late 1930s. The final crisis with Poland used the excuse of ethnic Germans in the Danzig Corridor. Too many disturbing parallels. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 What Russian minorities in Rumania or Poland? They were never part of the Soviet Union, unlike Ukraine, Georgia, Estonia etc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron Jacquinot Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 The Russians might be able to turn off the gas but there will be no "blitz of the West" your as delusional as Putin. Your country can only put 50 t-90s into service and 2 dozen mig-29s, the bulk of your equipment is 30 year old tech, WTF is that gonna do against NATO / US ??? Most NATO equipment is 30 year old tech too, old RPG7 can hit abrams tank. And we have many modern weapons which can be fast produced. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron Jacquinot Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 NATO/US can fight only with aboriginals in Middle East and North Africa, in Europe only Germans can resist Russian army, but to do this they need A. Hitler, not a Merkel. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron Jacquinot Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 We need a just one provocation with mass murders to occupy East Ukraine! Day of revenge is coming! Heil Russia! Heil victory! ;-) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 From milgames: http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/03/06/the_battle_for_lviv_war_game_orange_crush_ukraine 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdogg Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Your delusional and this is why Russians like you allow Putin to be in power, he is not good for Russia or the west. The very reason you lost the Cold War still exists today, doesn't matter how good the t-90 or mig-29 looks on paper they have never been in combat and Russia can't sustain high quality standing armies economically. Your still relying on a conscript army driving t-72s, the Iraqi republican guard was a better match than a Russian motor rifle division, at least they were battle hardened veterans. Oh and by the way, those middle easterners just so happened to kick your butts out of their country in the 1980s, where as we are still there on our terms. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Let's keep it civil. I'm about to start up a new thread that will give you guys something to chew on which is directly relevant. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron Jacquinot Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Your delusional and this is why Russians like you allow Putin to be in power, he is not good for Russia or the west. The very reason you lost the Cold War still exists today, doesn't matter how good the t-90 or mig-29 looks on paper they have never been in combat and Russia can't sustain high quality standing armies economically. Your still relying on a conscript army driving t-72s, the Iraqi republican guard was a better match than a Russian motor rifle division, at least they were battle hardened veterans. Oh and by the way, those middle easterners just so happened to kick your butts out of their country in the 1980s, where as we are still there on our terms. We don't lost Cold War, War just began and it will be hot, I hope you will see Russian paratroopers over you stupid Yankee dickhead! "the Iraqi republican guard was a better match than a Russian motor rifle division" - you are brainwashed idiot? "Oh and by the way, those middle easterners just so happened to kick your butts out of their country in the 1980s, where as we are still there on our terms" - we try build socialist state in Afganistan, and you just sit on your bases, if we will be support Taliban you go away very quick. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 We don't lost Cold War, War just began and it will be hot, I hope you will see Russian paratroopers over you stupid Yankee dickhead! "the Iraqi republican guard was a better match than a Russian motor rifle division" - you are brainwashed idiot? You were already banned once for 2 weeks for abusive behavior. Make another post like this and I assure you I will correct the mistake and make your ban permanent. Your choice. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
baron Jacquinot Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 You were already banned once for 2 weeks for abusive behavior. Make another post like this and I assure you I will correct the mistake and make your ban permanent. Your choice. Steve I don't care, the War is started, you are enemies of me and my country! **** THE USA! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 As you requested, you are now banned and my previous mistake corrected. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tdogg Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Wow..... That's all you got..... Not really helping your debate with that last one. In fact you kind of proved my point. Truth be told war with the west is not good for any one. Just look how your economy did a nose dive with Obama just hinting at sanctions. Personally I don't want to see a war with Russia because that will crush the further development of sims like Dcs world or 1c's IL2 battle for Stalingrad. This is what I mean by putin's saber rattling is not good for anyone. It just baffles me that you would support a leader like that, he doesn't seem to have your nations best interests in mind. It is a new world now and there is no place for an egotistical Cold War relic like Putin. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Wow..... That's all you got..... Not really helping your debate with that last one. In fact you kind of proved my point. Truth be told war with the west is not good for any one. Just look how your economy did a nose dive with Obama just hinting at sanctions. Personally I don't want to see a war with Russia because that will crush the further development of sims like Dcs world or 1c's IL2 battle for Stalingrad. This is what I mean by putin's saber rattling is not good for anyone. It just baffles me that you would support a leader like that, he doesn't seem to have your nations best interests in mind. It is a new world now and there is no place for an egotistical Cold War relic like Putin. I think you should not argue with a banned, ex, no more, forum member. All this just shows how much misunderstanding there is among common Western and Russian people that are under the influence of their local propaganda. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Over the last decades of independent Ukraine, the democratic process resulted in swings from pro-Western to pro-Russian and back, with both sides having about equal number of supporters. The West has been trying to bring Ukraine under the NATO umbrella (often deeply hidden within the proposals) for many years now, and one should understand that that is not acceptable for Russia. Ukraine as an independent nation in its full current extent is historically not completely self evident. The current full support of the West for the government of the uprising can certainly be interpreted as strong aggression towards Russia and also goes against the wishes of a substantial part of the Ukrainian population. Everybody who ignores these aspects in the current situation is just as much a warmonger as Jacquinot. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Yup, I think that particular line of argument should be ended. We in the West do have to keep in mind that we have a few hundred years of democratic principles working in our DNA. This is not true for much of the world. And even still, some of the leaders the West chooses are nothing to brag about. With that in mind, I don't think it is very productive to argue whose system has more warts and whose leaders have more flaws. We are all Humans and we are, to some degree or another, all being used for someone else's purposes on a daily basis. The difference is some of us are treated better than the others. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Over the last decades of independent Ukraine, the democratic process resulted in swings from pro-Western to pro-Russian and back, with both sides having about equal number of supporters. The West has been trying to bring Ukraine under the NATO umbrella (often deeply hidden within the proposals) for many years now, and one should understand that that is not acceptable for Russia. Ukraine as an independent nation in its full current extent is historically not completely self evident. The current full support of the West for the government of the uprising can certainly be interpreted as strong aggression towards Russia and also goes against the wishes of a substantial part of the Ukrainian population. Everybody who ignores these aspects in the current situation is just as much a warmonger as Jacquinot. All this is true, but there is one critical difference. The West has a general view that no nation should be a slave to another. One that can choose for itself who it does business with and under what circumstances. We can argue about how that works out practically in real life, but that is the fundamental principles of Western culture. The problem with this is it is the opposite of Russian culture and politics. Which means even the idea of Ukraine being free and independent is a threat to Russia because, in the end, Russia knows that without enormous cultural and political change a free Ukraine will favor the West. To boil this down, the West says "Russia... we are no threat to you. We simply believe Ukraine should make up it's own mind". Russia, in response, says "but that is a threat to us, therefore we will do everything we can to make sure Ukraine is unable to decide for itself". Russia underestimates it's ability to be a genuine partner and friend with Ukraine, and therefore won't take a risk on a Western approach to relations and instead continues with it's traditional autocratic solution. This is not to say that the West is superior or that it isn't doing things in it's own self interests, it's simply a reality check that the only way for the West to not be in conflict with Russia is to abandon it's core ideals of self determination. That it can not do any more than Russia seems willing to change it's attitude that Ukraine is a part of Russia whether it wants to be or not. Which is why a conflict over the Ukraine, and Crimea specifically, wasn't a hard one to see coming. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buzz Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Not to sound simplistic or silly but .... My grandmother taught me... kind of drilled into me "Do unto other as you would want them to do unto you." Worked on her farm from the animals to the hired help to our family. I always ask myself why ...but try really hard to treat others the way I want to be treated. Yes GrandMaw had Live Horses 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Acting fully according to self-determination, the rational solution seems to split the Ukraine with the Crimea and the Don area going to Russia, and the West of the Ukraine becoming a state within the EU sphere, under protection of NATO if necessary. Keeping up the principles of sovereign territorial integrity for the whole Ukraine will only lead to large scale misery in this case. Like a miserable marriage, divorce can be a solution (but usually not without a fight, unfortunately). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 Perhaps, but it isn't as simple as that. Currently the pro-unity demonstrations are coming about and they are strong. In some hot spots even stronger than the pro-Russian demonstrations. It would be similar to Belgium. Yes, there are trends for one region wanting to go with Netherlands and another going with France, but overall the majority of people want to stay together. From what I have learned through this process of crisis is that seems to be the case with Ukraine. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 When you keep the Ukraine together, it cannot become fully Western oriented, because in that case the industrial area in the East would be destroyed: it can only function in close cooperation with Russia, it cannot compete on a free market. Take your example of Belgium: the largest driving force for the divorce is the sad state of the Walloon industry and the social friction it implies. In a Western oriented Ukraine with the Eastern industry destroyed, the Belgian divide would seem absolutely tiny in comparison. And I think that besides all kind of irrational feelings, this is a justified fear of the Russian Ukrainians. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Battlefront.com Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 This is an example of why I think Russia's fears of losing Ukraine (short to mid term) are overblown. The Ukraine wants to have good economic ties with Russia for a number of reasons. Having more ties with the West is unlikely to change that dynamic for a long time. As I see it part of this crisis is because Russia lacks self confidence. They think that if the Ukraine could decide for itself what to do it would turn it's back on Russia. I do not think this is actually possible to do in the near term. Unfortunately, Russia does not understand that they are executing a "self fulfilling prophecy". The more they treat their Ukrainian neighbors as a servant to Russia's needs, the more they will convince Ukrainians they should look West. Long term this strategy of Russia's will fail. Even for it's own internal political and economic situation. Steve 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erik Springelkamp Posted March 6, 2014 Share Posted March 6, 2014 I am afraid that in an escalating situation rational long term considerations will go out of the window. For now the EU has promised the price of a full Battlefront game out of my tax money as emergency support for the Kiev government. I hope the misery will be limited to that amount. But I would have preferred that Putin would have supplied that money. And when there really will be fighting in Ukraine, I don't think I will enjoy your coming Black Sea game as much. I still remember when we had planned to play the ASL scenario Khamsin, when operation Desert Storm was announced. This put us off playing ASL for half a year. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
costard Posted March 7, 2014 Share Posted March 7, 2014 Russia did/does want the Ukraine to remain united - it wasn't the Russians who paid for and instigated the coup. Therefore, it is far more the obligation the parties who did pay for and plan that usurpation of power to fix what they broke. Instead, they're absolutely convinced of their right to control events - no-one else is a stake-holder, no-one else is to be party to the negotiation of the outcome. Win at all costs, the means justifies the ends. Absolutely ****ing mental. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.