Minefields

[Erwin]

Occurred to me, would it be practical that when a trooper enters a minefield and gets blown up, that everyone else (especially members of his team) within a certain radius, immediately halts and HIDES.

In WEGO it's not very realistic that following team members follow blindly into the minefield and get blown up as well.

[SlowMotion]

Agree about stopping, but why hide?

[sburke]

Agree about stopping, but why hide?

If your following units are on hunt they should stop. If they have any other move order expect to hear some more mines going off. If they didn't keep going a mine field could effectively become an impenetrable barrier to infantry (and hell even armor) until you either cleared it or got a unit through. Sometimes you don't have time to clear it and you just need to keep going.

[Michael Emrys]

Agree about stopping, but why hide?

My guess? The minefield is probably covered by fire, including MGs. Those would probably open up as soon as they get a nice, sitting target.

Michael

[Dadekster]

If your following units are on hunt they should stop. If they have any other move order expect to hear some more mines going off. If they didn't keep going a mine field could effectively become an impenetrable barrier to infantry (and hell even armor) until you either cleared it or got a unit through. Sometimes you don't have time to clear it and you just need to keep going.

That seems pretty gamey...who deliberately orders his troops into a minefield simply to get across it in most circumstances? Outside of possibly Russians Was there a lot of this going on in WW2? Asking since I have no idea tbh but I've never read about it. Seems kinda morale deflating. In game aren't located minefields something you can't order units in unless they are engineers/pioneers?

[Michael Emrys]

...who deliberately orders his troops into a minefield...?

The Iranians did about forty years later. Since you asked...

Michael

[sburke]

That seems pretty gamey...who deliberately orders his troops into a minefield simply to get across it in most circumstances? Outside of possibly Russians Was there a lot of this going on in WW2? Asking since I have no idea tbh but I've never read about it. Seems kinda morale deflating. In game aren't located minefields something you can't order units in unless they are engineers/pioneers?

Gamey, no I don't think so. If your choice is to sit there and wait for the mortar strike or try to get through it, what would you do?

Now if I know the minefiled is there and am still in cover, no I don't think I am gonna try to charge through it (Iranians aside), that is more than likely going to be a fiasco, but if my tactical considerations are limited and I have to do it, it would suck if the game made it impossible to do. Automatic responses in CM are a double edged sword. You always have to think about what affect it will have on limiting player options if you try to create behavior to protect them from the consequences of their decisions.

As an example I am playing a scenario currently and I am 90% sure the designer has mines out there. So my formation and plans are such to expect them and have a response. I am sending only few men in the advance as scouts followed by an engineer team on hunt at a distance followed by elements of the main body. I have uncovered several minefields and while it has cost me a couple men, the main body is untouched and my engineers have marked the mines before proceeding. It is slow, but that is the nature of moving against a prepared defense. Would I have preferred to hit the area with a lot of HE and hopefully clear them...yeah, but I don't have enough. If I did not have engineers I'd just have to find another route.

While it makes sense to think a guy walking along who sees someone ahead set off a mine is gonna stop and think a moment first, we are playing a computer game. They won't think, they are essentially binary behavior. (At the point they start thinking we are all in trouble, they'll frag us). In this instance I don't think there is a good binary option that doesn't tie our hands to try other options. So for me the answer is how one implements commands, spacing becomes very important as well as the mode of movement depending on what you expect you may have to deal with. In that sense it is pretty darn realistic.

[Erwin]

The DEFAULT should be to stop and HIDE. That is "realistic" behavior.

Right now, troops keep moving right into the minefield after the they see their buddy in front get blown up.

You could have an override order to move thru, but that should be SLOW. Who here in RL would run thru a known minefield?

Maybe Russian penal troops and Iranian religious nutjobs. But, that is hardly the norm.

[A Canadian Cat]

My guess? The minefield is probably covered by fire, including MGs. Those would probably open up as soon as they get a nice, sitting target.

Yep, that is normally how it is done.

Gamey, no I don't think so. If your choice is to sit there and wait for the mortar strike or try to get through it, what would you do?

Turn around and go back. Presumably you came from a covered position.

[Freyberg]

I remember a story about Patton ordering some men to advance through a minefield, on the basis that staying put and being shelled would have resulted in more casualties.

[MikeyD]

The concept of 'realistic behavior' doesn't seem to apply to the Russian Front very well. I recall that opening scene from the film 'Enemy at the Gates' where every other man in an assault was issued a rifle, the second man was supposed to pick up the first man's rifle after he was killed.

CM scenario designers have been reluctant to go whole-hog on the minefield front in their battles, we usually just see mines in-game as occasional booby trap locations. There's things that you could put into a battle but they tend to bring gameplay to a screeching halt. Like Xylophone artillery rockets on a small map in CMBN or too much air power in CMSF. Having a minefield belt separating you from your objective isn't exactly conducive to entertaining gameplay.

[SlowMotion]

I recently watched a 3 part movie from TV where events took place during WW2. In one of the scenes German infantry was advancing towards Moscow through some large swampy area. Water was often 10-20cm deep. During such advance they noticed they had entered a minefield when one of the soldiers heard a click under his boot. Others moved away and then the mine exploded when the soldier lifted his boot.

Because no gun firing was heard they assumed no enemy soldiers were nearby. The ground was so wet, so soldiers didn't hit the ground either. So did they choose another path to avoid the mines ahead? The solution was to take some civilians to march in front and soldiers followed.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1883092/

[Mr.X]

Nobody is able to hear a "click" from a mine, placed 10-20cm under water and stop moving...everything, one in this situation probably will hear, is the choir of the angels

Regards

Frank

[sburke]

Turn around and go back. Presumably you came from a covered position.

That is an assumption, maybe back is further to cover than forward. Maybe you are in the middle of the minefield or worse, more than 50% through. Still want to go back?

My point is deciding what should automatically be AI behavior assumes things are always going to occur one way.

MikeyD's point about how mines are usually deployed in CM is more then likely true most of the time. I actually haven't run into too many battles with a minefield that was then covered by MGs and Mortars. They are usually simply a deterrent to hinder you on a covered approach. As Mikey said, more a booby trap affect.

[Erwin]

Are soldiers trained to run through a minefield when one explodes??

The human reaction is to freeze, surely. In CM however the line of soldiers keeps moving forward like robots so each is killed in turn.

(Am I in Bizarro World here??)

[sburke]

Are soldiers trained to run through a minefield when one explodes??

The human reaction is to freeze, surely. In CM however the line of soldiers keeps moving forward like robots so each is killed in turn.

(Am I in Bizarro World here??)

no but maybe you can try hunt or more separation between units, why does there HAVE to be AI behavior changed to protect you from yourself?

Sorry I am just wary of an auto response simply because I can see unintended side effects that make minefields even more prohibitive than they are now. If I recall waaaayy back when JonS and Elvis were playing Bois de Baugin in the CMBN Bate AAR there was discussion of slow movement through a minefield. Do we now prohibit any movement at all?

[Baneman]

no but maybe you can try hunt or more separation between units, why does there HAVE to be AI behavior changed to protect you from yourself?

...

To be fair, no one uses HUNT for normal movement - the fatigue penalty is too huge.

I think Erwin is describing a situation where you QUICK a team up to, say, a treeline or hedge. One AS short of the destination, a man steps on a mine.

In WEGO, unless you're very lucky with the timing, the rest of the team will haplessly run into/through the discovered minefield to "get to the destination" and probably most will also die.

He's saying that if the default was to hit the deck, you'd have a chance to extricate the survivors - whether forcing them onwards through it or not.

I can see that it would be tricky to code though, since any effort to get them through the field ( if you wanted them to do that ) would need some way to stop the default behaviour.

I think it's just one of the penalties we WEGOers have to deal with - after all, the same sort of lemming-death applies if the first guy through a bocage gap gets shot. All his mates still follow through and also die.

Suppression is our only friend in these cases

[sburke]

To be fair, no one uses HUNT for normal movement - the fatigue penalty is too huge.

I think Erwin is describing a situation where you QUICK a team up to, say, a treeline or hedge. One AS short of the destination, a man steps on a mine.

In WEGO, unless you're very lucky with the timing, the rest of the team will haplessly run into/through the discovered minefield to "get to the destination" and probably most will also die.

He's saying that if the default was to hit the deck, you'd have a chance to extricate the survivors - whether forcing them onwards through it or not.

I can see that it would be tricky to code though, since any effort to get them through the field ( if you wanted them to do that ) would need some way to stop the default behaviour.

I think it's just one of the penalties we WEGOers have to deal with - after all, the same sort of lemming-death applies if the first guy through a bocage gap gets shot. All his mates still follow through and also die.

Suppression is our only friend in these cases

Yeah I can see the point there. I don't generally have that much trouble with hunt though, could be simply an issue of the map size and distance. Actually the one I have had more trouble with is quick. In Hamel Vallee, my units were almost incapable of using quick. Lousy fitness levels can do that.

[Dadekster]

To be fair, no one uses HUNT for normal movement - the fatigue penalty is too huge.

I think Erwin is describing a situation where you QUICK a team up to, say, a treeline or hedge. One AS short of the destination, a man steps on a mine.

In WEGO, unless you're very lucky with the timing, the rest of the team will haplessly run into/through the discovered minefield to "get to the destination" and probably most will also die.

He's saying that if the default was to hit the deck, you'd have a chance to extricate the survivors - whether forcing them onwards through it or not.

I can see that it would be tricky to code though, since any effort to get them through the field ( if you wanted them to do that ) would need some way to stop the default behaviour.

I think it's just one of the penalties we WEGOers have to deal with - after all, the same sort of lemming-death applies if the first guy through a bocage gap gets shot. All his mates still follow through and also die.

Suppression is our only friend in these cases

Think this pretty much hits the nail on the head here. I however have seen circumstances where just one man or maybe two will run through that hole/building/across street etc and get gunned down and the rest of the squad will instead retreat back. Now I believe this is usually if the unit is already nervous etc and the TacAI takes over sooner with self preservation kicking in. I haven't seen to many interactions with minefields but generally anytime anything explodes anywhere near RL troops be it a mine or a random shell they all going to kiss the ground and stay there until they deem it safe to stick their head up or move somewhere better. After that most units aren't going to walk into a known minefield any further. Minefields weren't designed to kill soldier en masse they were used to channel and deny movement. I think that effect is achieved in the game as well so they work in that regard. I'd like to see a mine have a temporary shocked effect perhaps in that the unit simply stops and seeks cover for a minute until the turn is over. After that the unit can be moved again as normal.

[SlowMotion]

Nobody is able to hear a "click" from a mine, placed 10-20cm under water and stop moving...everything, one in this situation probably will hear, is the choir of the angels

I can't remember whether the soldier heard a click or felt something under his boot, but he stopped anyway. No idea how realistic that is - you know a mine is going to explode once you move - movies are movies

[Sergei]

Yeah, it's an old trope. Practically no mine in existence does that, nor would it make any sense except for dramatic cinema. Unfortunately weapon designers don't give enough consideration for the latter.

[Erwin]

"...no but maybe you can try hunt or more separation between units, why does there HAVE to be AI behavior changed to protect you from yourself?"

How do you get "more separation" between team members?? That would be great if it's a new feature.

In this case my guys were running to cover. The RL behavior is to freeze. Following blindly into a minefield when your buddy ahead just got blowed up is not realistic.

Maybe it's not good to stop in a minefield cos it may be mortared soon, but freezing for at least a short time would be normal. One WEGO turn and then you can order em to move again.

[Sergei]

In a battlefield, how do you instantaneously know that it was a mine rather than a mortar shell, hand grenade or any other number of explody stuff?

[Michael Emrys]

In a battlefield, how do you instantaneously know that it was a mine rather than a mortar shell, hand grenade or any other number of explody stuff?

I'm not sure I know the answer to that question, but the men in the field apparently did. At least if my readings are telling the story right. And anyway, that's what happens in the movies. You aren't going to question that, are you?

Michael

[Tux]

Weren't S-mines quite distinctive when they went off? *bang* as they jump into the air and then *bang* a split second later as they discharge their shrapnel load?

No idea what proportion of German AP mines were S-mines, off the top of my head...