What about the Melee Attack?

[t34577685]

It's very interesting and important thing in CMBO.CMBB.CMAK.

NOW the tank-rider,ground against air are come back ,I am so missing the Melee attack.

[Doug Williams]

Agreed. I would also like to see this make a comeback. It would, of course, have to be abstracted.

[Freyberg]

I played a lot of CMBB/AK/BO - I don't remember that command.

[Michael Emrys]

I played a lot of CMBB/AK/BO - I don't remember that command.

Yeah, he might be thinking of Human Wave. That was limited to just use by the Soviets and them only in '41-early '42 though, wasn't it?

Michael

[Kenzie]

Well I want them to add a 'throw brick' button.

[Freyberg]

Human wave was a cute command. It was cool to have something so specific to that theatre and those troops. It would be fun to have it back.

[LukeFF]

Agreed. I would also like to see this make a comeback. It would, of course, have to be abstracted.

Which means it would look incredibly lame.

On that note, I do wonder how BF is going to visually render Soviet riflemen, given that they were to have their bayonets fixed at all times in a combat zone. Heck, they didn't even issue them bayonet scabbards!

[waclaw]

I do not know how it was on other fronts, 1939 Poles often went to bayonets (especially at night)

night between 3 and 4 September Wołyńska Cavalry Brigade attacked with bayonets, after half an hour germany lost about 30 vehicles (including tanks) and a hundred killed.

*

night, Sept. 15 Bronislaw Prugar - Ketling ordered to unload magazines two regiments of infantry rifles (not to betray intentions and attacked Regiment SS Germania completely surprising him, the fight was fought almost without loud, killed most of the commanders, they lost all the heavy equipment. De facto German regiment ceased to exist.

[Vanir Ausf B]

between 3 and 4 September Wołyńska Cavalry Brigade attacked with bayonets, after half an hour germany lost about 30 vehicles (including tanks)

Those were not bayonets. They were light sabers.

[Skwabie]

lol... The Force was indeed strong!

[Endymion]

Lol, sabers as in cavalry weapons not the ones you're thinking about young padawan

In fact there were cases of very successful cavalry charges against German infantry in the September campaign. Please do not confuse with German propaganda about cavalry charges against tanks...now this one was a lie made up by the nazis for propaganda purposes.

Uhlans (polish cavalry) always fought on foot when facing German tanks and were equipped with modern AT weapons (AT rifles and 37mm AT guns). In fact, in 1939 that time they were pretty much mounted infantry rather than traditional cavalry.

Sorry for the digression, carry on

[waclaw]

Those were not bayonets. They were light sabers.

This description counterattack under kamienski - there were attacked without horses with bayonets.

surely you mean the charge under Krojanty?

[BLSTK]

Well I want them to add a 'throw brick' button.

Ha, Ha...Hasn't BFC done enough "stonewalling"?

[Doug Williams]

Which means it would look incredibly lame.

It wouldn't have to "look" like anything. IIRC, in CM1 you just heard the sounds of melee combat whenever two opposing units entered adjacent action squares.

As it is now, if both units are out of ammo, they just give each other mean looks.

To be fair though, I only think I've seen that happen one time.

[Wodin]

As I mention before..maybe just a bayonet symbol appears above them with sound effects. Like the way the surrender flag appears..this would be a bayonet.

[Saferight]

i know in the assault on SS Germania there weren't any tanks destroyed but lots of half tracks trucks other transport etc. with a few armored cars. They received a total ass kicking from the Poles.

@ Wodin i think that is a good idea for handling the abstraction along with something like the old CM1 sounds of hand to hand combat.

[Childress]

Yeah, he might be thinking of Human Wave. That was limited to just use by the Soviets and them only in '41-early '42 though, wasn't it?

Speaking of the HW (big fun), are we going to be able to break Soviet squads into teams? Just Guard units? Or will they resemble the Italians with their inflexible structure?

[Lt Belenko]

Lol, sabers as in cavalry weapons not the ones you're thinking about young padawan

In fact there were cases of very successful cavalry charges against German infantry in the September campaign. Please do not confuse with German propaganda about cavalry charges against tanks...now this one was a lie made up by the nazis for propaganda purposes.

Uhlans (polish cavalry) always fought on foot when facing German tanks and were equipped with modern AT weapons (AT rifles and 37mm AT guns). In fact, in 1939 that time they were pretty much mounted infantry rather than traditional cavalry.

Sorry for the digression, carry on

Interesting. I had a coworker that said his hHigh school math teacher was in the Polish cavalry. The teacher claimed to have busted his saber on a tank barrel. The teacher made it to America right after the war. When I heard this story I assumed complete fairy tale. It probably was true.

[Endymion]

Interesting. I had a coworker that said his hHigh school math teacher was in the Polish cavalry. The teacher claimed to have busted his saber on a tank barrel. The teacher made it to America right after the war. When I heard this story I assumed complete fairy tale. It probably was true.

Well, I very much doubt the story. These were not suicidal halfwits charging the tanks with saber in hand, there were no "banzai" charges Think of it this way, what sane man would try to hit a tank with a piece of steel?

Anyway, the later propaganda story was meant to say "Hey, look how stupid and underarmed the polish army is, they attack tanks with sabers and lances!" and to show the technological advantage of the Germans.

The myth probably came from battle of Krojanty (mentioned earlier by Waclaw) where an Uhlan regiment charged around 800 German infantry, scattering them, but were later attacked from the flank by previously hidden German armored transports. After suffering some casualties they withrew, but the story was later passed on to German and Italian war correspondents as "Polish cavalry charging tanks" and it stuck. In 1941, in the German propaganda movie "Kampfgeschwader Lützow", a charge was staged using Slovak soldiers to play the role of polish cavalrymen charging German tanks. And though it was a pure propaganda movie, its fragments were often used in the West as "real footage" from September 1939

And so the story stuck and every now and then you hear the myth of polish cavalry charging German tanks I'm trying to fight it wherever I see it but it's like fighting windmills sometimes.

By the way, as for polish cavalry units being used against German armoured units, there are many examples, but always on foot, armed with very good AT weapons for that time. As an example you can see the battle of Mokra where polish uhlans held against an attack by the German 4th Armoured Div. for 1 day, destroying 100 enemy tanks in the process. There was also one mounted charge during the battle, but against enemy infantry. But like I said, this was cavalry fighting mostly on foot, armed with weaponry like: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bofors_37_mm and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wz._35_anti-tank_rifle

There are several other cases of successful engagements against armored units and also mounted charges against infantry, but I won't be quoting everything here for obvious reasons.

Again, sorry for derailing the thread, just trying to sprad some knowledge

[Doug Williams]

Congratulations on completely derailing the original subject of this thread, which is the OP's request that melee combat was represented in CM2 as it was in CM1.

I'm sure it's very interesting what someone's Polish math teacher did in WW2.

I have an uncle who was in the 101st Airborne on D-Day. He landed in a glider behind enemy lines. Not kidding.

Now, can we get back on subject, or are we going to hear about someone else's uncle's cousin's social studies teacher who knew a person that read a book about WW2?

[Michael Emrys]

Speaking of the HW (big fun), are we going to be able to break Soviet squads into teams? Just Guard units? Or will they resemble the Italians with their inflexible structure?

Probably. Although perhaps some specially trained units, such as recon, might be able to break down into teams.

Michael

[waclaw]

generally should be able to melee (buildings, forests) wherever both sides are fighting for very short distances - especially on the eastern front, where the Soviets used a huge human "wave" and where direct contact occurred very often

for example, during the Warsaw Uprising in 1944, when insurgents well barricaded, Germany blew up walls of buildings to get to the insurgents.

* on the ground floor were Germany, on the first floor of the poles, and on the second floor again Germany to again on the third floor were poles - in such situations melee was the norm (in Stalingrad was the same)

[Los]

I don't think the human wave is relevant to the melee itself which is already something that happens in Combat Mission. However It is relevant to getting a battalion of conscripts across that 500 m frozen expanse INTO melee.

Los

[LukeFF]

It wouldn't have to "look" like anything. IIRC, in CM1 you just heard the sounds of melee combat whenever two opposing units entered adjacent action squares.

Well sure, but pretty much all of the infantry animations in CMx1 were primitive. I've come to expect more with CMBN, and in most ways the infantry animations are satisfactory to me. They realistically maneuver over walls & fences, reload their weapons, and fall in a variety of different ways when hit by enemy fire. The point I'm getting at is that if BF does implement melee combat, I want it to look good and not like a halfway-done rush job.