Can anyone offer advice on decent head-to-head vehicle matchups?

[Zenomorph]

Ok, I've asked about armor matchups before but after spending too much (and frustrating) time screwing around in the editor I'm hoping I've earned the right to ask this question more directly. I'm just trying to create a scenario(s) with decent head-to-head matchups by opposing tanks. If anyone can offer advice on this I'd GREATLY appreciate it.

I'll give one matchup I found that I kind of like. Taking 20 tanks from each side I pitted the (waaay upgunned) M4A3(105) Sherman against the Pz IVG (latest) across an open field. The result in 1 turn was 5 of the Pz's knocked out. Woohoo! BUT...all the Sherman's were blown to smithereens. Still, I liked that result (sort of) bc I wouldn't plan to actually face the sides across an empty field that way anyway. A result where maybe 5-7 of the Shermans had survived (and also not been panicked) would have been about perfect. I just want the Allied side to have a decent chance of getting in their own kills and not just serve as target practice on occasions where the two actually do square off head-to-head.

Thanks GREATLY for any advice. I did this similar test with many tanks and the result is usu a one-sided slaughter - usu by the Germans of course. Even replacing crews with regular v elite hasn't made much difference.

[z1812]

Have you tried Panzer III'S against Stuarts. I have found in QB's that they can be a reasonable match.

[Vanir Ausf B]

If you want a match-up that offers roughly even odds then Sherman 75s vs Panzer IVs works. The only Allied tank in CMBN that offers much difficulty for German anti-tank guns of 75mm or larger is the Churchill.

On the German side the King Tiger, Panther and Jagdpanther should be avoided. If the Allies only have 75mm or smaller guns than you can add Tigers and Jagdpanzer IVs to that list.

[Zenomorph]

Have you tried Panzer III'S against Stuarts. I have found in QB's that they can be a reasonable match.

Really? I'll have to try that. I'm pretty sure I tried Pz IIIs against Shermans in my little test and it didn't go so well for the Shermans. I know I read somewhere - probably here - that the Stuarts had an amazingly spot-on optics/targeting capability; able to pick out even small chinks in enemy armor. I suppose that'd have to explain it.

[Bradley]

Stuart vs. PzII Lynx is interesting.

[slysniper]

Really? I'll have to try that. I'm pretty sure I tried Pz IIIs against Shermans in my little test and it didn't go so well for the Shermans. I know I read somewhere - probably here - that the Stuarts had an amazingly spot-on optics/targeting capability; able to pick out even small chinks in enemy armor. I suppose that'd have to explain it.

Not sure how you are testing but you have some issues

First, The Shermans in the game will outfight the Pz IV. So I am sure it would also out perform the Pz III.

(now this does change as to who does better when the range of contact is adjusted. So make it 2400 meters and maybe the Germans do win. But 700 meters, the American Sherman will win for sure.)

So you need much more information as to what you are truely after and what type of battle you are envisioning. Because the range of the the battle makes a huge difference.

I do agree stewarts against mk III's likely would make a decent matchup.

Fireflies vs panthers are a good matchup too.

And you do know you can play red on red. I find Tigers vs panthers pretty interesting in a real battle (not on a tast range as you are trying to do)

[Zenomorph]

Not sure how you are testing but you have some issues

Oh trust me, I've got "issues"!! But, given the responses, I've been wondering the same thing. I'm not getting the results that people are mentioning. I simply created an open field and set up vehicles at 2000m, 1000m and 300m apart. I used 20 vehicles per side figuring that'd give a reasonable average. I think I might have accidentally picked the wrong type of Sherman (since there are several) v the Pz IV for example. I'll try it again when I find time.

But thanks for the responses!

[Tux]

And you do know you can play red on red. I find Tigers vs panthers pretty interesting in a real battle (not on a tast range as you are trying to do)

This works quite well as long as you don't try Sherman Vs Sherman. I did that once and the entire battle devolved into farce as it became clear that neither side could penetrate the other frontally, even at zero range.

My opponent and I ran out of main gun ammo and then agreed to dismount and fight to the death with Colts and Thompsons. That was... interesting.

[Tux]

I think I might have accidentally picked the wrong type of Sherman (since there are several) v the Pz IV for example. I'll try it again when I find time.

But thanks for the responses!

This, mate. Using Sherman 105s in an open-field shoutout will favour the Pz IVs due to the long reloading time for the Americans' howitzers. Standard Shermans are a perfectly good balance to Pz IVs in most situations, I find.

[slysniper]

Oh trust me, I've got "issues"!! But, given the responses, I've been wondering the same thing. I'm not getting the results that people are mentioning. I simply created an open field and set up vehicles at 2000m, 1000m and 300m apart. I used 20 vehicles per side figuring that'd give a reasonable average. I think I might have accidentally picked the wrong type of Sherman (since there are several) v the Pz IV for example. I'll try it again when I find time.

But thanks for the responses!

You mentioned 105's, you do understand that they do not have AP ammo.

Shermans with plain old 75's are plenty of gun vs the PZ IV until you get out to greater ranges. ( if I recall correctly it might be a pretty fair fight at approx 1200 M, I really dont remember or keep this stuff charted like some of the nuts here.)

[slysniper]

This works quite well as long as you don't try Sherman Vs Sherman. I did that once and the entire battle devolved into farce as it became clear that neither side could penetrate the other frontally, even at zero range.

My opponent and I ran out of main gun ammo and then agreed to dismount and fight to the death with Colts and Thompsons. That was... interesting.

Now that is funny. It is interesting as to how well the sherman deflects shots in the game to its frontal armor.

Tux, should have saved the ammo, charged forward and head for the flanks.

[Freyberg]

Sherman and PzIV have very different characteristics, so it depends on the map and the tactics it allows. PzIV have better optics and an accurate gun, so if they can keep the Sherman at range, they will cream them. But Pz IV is somewhat lightly armoured and slow to load, while the Sherman is fast, manoueverable and 'quick on the draw' - and can usually survive at least one hit - so at close range the Sherman is at a big advantage.

[womble]

Just looking at the calibre of the weapon doesn't give a good indication of its usage. The 105 Sherman is an HE chucker. Sure, it has a HEAT round, but that's mostly for show. As has been said, the 75 Sherman is a fairly good matchup against the PzIV. At short range, the Sherman's better, but at long range its lower velocity gun starts to become a liability and its fast turret less of an advantage.

I don't know how you managed to get PzIIIs to beat a lineup of Shermans. Their 50mm gun will struggle to achieve a frontal penetration, even square-on, and the 75mm AP of the Sherman will pretty much go through the early-war tank's armour like it wasn't there.

[Pak40]

Yea, I agree with womble, the 105 Sherman is not a good match for the MkIV because the HEAT round are not as accurate as AP rounds due to the slower velocity and they don't carry too many of them.

Why not match Pz IV with Sherman 76mm? Should be fairly even at long range.

[Freyberg]

A realistic mix - PzIVs against a mix of Sherman 75s & a few 76s, with maybe a single Panther to make things interesting - is a fair mix IMO.

[womble]

Why not match Pz IV with Sherman 76mm? Should be fairly even at long range.

My reasoning may be flawed, but I get the feeling that the 76 is as good, or even better, an anti-armour weapon as the IV's 75/L48. But even if it's only "equivalent" to the IV's gun, the Sherman's armour would become the difference between the two, in a straight-on fight, giving an appreciable advantage to the Allies.

[Ales Dvorak]

..snip... That was... interesting.

...snip...Now that is funny.

Hmmmmm.....

Love,

Alice

[Quintus Sertorius]

I've had fun with the German 234/1 armored car with the 20mm cannon versus the Staghound. The 234 fires dozens of rounds which may or may not penetrate, while the Staghound fires much more slowly but almost always does serious damage if it hits.

[Saferight]

Stuart vs. PzII Lynx is interesting.

This is why i really look forward to the early war stuff in the future. Little tanks beating the tar out of each other is very entertaining.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mqyYj_i3iCE

[Zenomorph]

This works quite well as long as you don't try Sherman Vs Sherman. I did that once and the entire battle devolved into farce as it became clear that neither side could penetrate the other frontally, even at zero range.

Actually I love that matchup. To me a great game is when both sides can't count on ko-ing the other side's vehicles too easily - especially not frontally. Having both sides needing to use their wits to maneuver to get in flanking shots is, to me, a MUCH more enjoyable game. If anyone has any matchups like that other than Shermans I'd love to know about it.

I'm sure everyone's correct about the 105s v the IIIs. I was in too much of a hurry I think - would rather have been, ya know, playing the game rather than stumbling around making a mess in the editor.