Holien Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 So I have a sweet spot set up... Narrow LOS and a Firefly waiting for a victim... FF 40_35 Spots Panther by msj_1, on Flickr Victim moves forward and my crew and another tank spots the victim who is then attacked (3 hits) by another tank (during course of engagement), but it is my FF that I know will end the Panthers life... 40:35 Crew shout enemy ahoy!! 40:20 a whole 15 seconds later... FF 40_20 Dies From Panther by msj_1, on Flickr The Crew are a good crew (well bad in my books but on paper a +2 Vet crew... For 15 seconds they have seen an enemy and make no attempt to fire on it what so ever.. Just shown as spotting? Has anyone seen this sort of behaviour before? Is my gunner in wrong spot? Internally I am ARGGGGGGGHHHHHing Moan over (well not really I am still arrrgghhhing) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Yep; most likely the gunner can't see the target through the main gunsight -- In a Sherman (including the Firefly), the gunner sits on the right side of the turret. The gunner's sight is also on this side of the turret. So the gunner's view of the the enemy tank through the main gunsight is probably obstructed by the edge of that tall bocage to the right of the tank, but the unbuttoned TC, with a wider field of view, is able to see the enemy tank. In technical terms, the Firefly has LOS, but not LOF, to the target. And the enemy tank is able to see the front left quadrant of the Firefly, so it can target and hit the Firefly. Ideally, what should happen is that after a few seconds of searching, the Firefly gunner should report to the tc that he doesn't have LOF to the enemy, and the TC should give the order to the driver to shift position. But units don't really do this in-game. In this particular case, though, it probably wouldn't have made any difference, as 15 seconds is probably not enough time for this process to have taken place. It would probably take at least this long for the tank crew to figure out that they had an LOF issue, and start moving the tank. Moral of the story is: Be wary of using extremely keyholed engagement positions. Keyholed positions are usually good, but if the arc of engagement is extremely narrow, you encounter LOS/LOF issues like this. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 ^^^ That's probably it. Turn on your trees, go to the Panther's position and zoom in at the Firefly. I'm sure that the gunner's sight will be blocked by vegetation. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seedorf81 Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Wouldn't real soldiers make sure they (TC and gunner) had their LOF and LOS in order? Certainly in a nice ambush position like this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Wouldn't real soldiers make sure they (TC and gunner) had their LOF and LOS in order? Certainly in a nice ambush position like this? You're assuming that they somehow know exactly where the enemy tank is going to appear. In the OP's situation, the gunner probably *can* see into the wheatfield somewhat, but he probably can't see quite far enough to his right to see the enemy tank through the gunsight. Unfortunately, bad luck for the Firefly was that the Panther showed up in a position where its gunner could see the Firefly, but not vice versa. I have actually read of very similar situations happening IRL, both in WWII an even modern (Gulf War). Tanks are not point entities and it is quite possible for one tank gunner to have LOF to a part of an enemy tank, while the enemy tank's gunsight view is blocked. (Incidentally, the game does give you a clue that you may have put your tank in a position like this. You know when you get the grey-colored targeting line? That's a clue that not all crew members/weapons systems on a tank can see the target point. If you see this when checking LOS/LOF in an ambush position, you probably want to adjust a bit). 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted September 17, 2013 Author Share Posted September 17, 2013 The limitations of the game... It would be nice if an AI check could be put in place to assess threat and if you see an enemy that is capable of hurting you and you have not engaged then get out of dodge... But I guess too hard to code... How do you decide threat etc.... Just bloody annoying and the one asset I had that could have made a difference.... Ohhh welll.... arrrrggghhhhhhhhhh 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 arrrrggghhhhhhhhhh War(gaming) is hell. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelson 1812 Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 Firefly... moving to ambush advancing Panther....(41:31) (40:20)...Red dot the shell leaving panther... has the firefly sighted Otto's Panther... (40:21) Its a kill... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 The limitations of the game... It would be nice if an AI check could be put in place to assess threat and if you see an enemy that is capable of hurting you and you have not engaged then get out of dodge... But I guess too hard to code... How do you decide threat etc.... Just bloody annoying and the one asset I had that could have made a difference.... Ohhh welll.... arrrrggghhhhhhhhhh The other aspect is fine tuning it so that the 90% of the time a target enters your view and the gunner doesn't have eyes on it your vehicles don't bug out. That's the issue with the AI. Think of a situation you want to correct then think of how many times that issue could possibly occur that you aren't noticing because events either lead to it not having an impact or it ends on a good note. Most of the requests I have heard on the forum for AI induced reactions fall into this category. It might work for that specific time when you'd like it, but it would also occur in a 1000 other situations where you'd be tearing your hair out. It all comes down to a judgment call and the AI can't make judgments, it can only do what it is told with a given bit of data. In your example if that Panther had been moving and continued into your gunner's line of sight all would have been good. If however you had the programming in to react then before it could have advanced into your LOS, your FF might already be bugging out - and the Panther might spot that movement and all would end the same. I know this, I'll be checking LOS from my gunners mount a lot more closely....lesson learned? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted September 17, 2013 Author Share Posted September 17, 2013 Yes AI code is really difficult and you are right how do you know when to make the move. AI can not easily do that. In this situation the Panther sat just in the right location as it advanced and I was sat just in the wrong location... As noted by Nelson he knew I had moved him up so he had advanced the right distance to nail me. (Very nice photo's btw) I guess as noted above you need to know where the gunner sits and use the LOS tool to try and make some judgements on where and if you will get a decent LOS. I had thought on the left but I need to become more of a grog.... The trouble is that with Wheat fields and bocage trying to get that takes more time than you often have to spend on it, so you make rough judgement calls... For me that call proved wrong and for Nelson right. The first blood in the game and considering what I know he has (tank wise) a pivotal point at this stage, and as he has designed the scenario (very good map BTW) I now need to get some breaks to get back at him... A tough ask but I will try... Just useful to raise for any newbies out there about the importance of spotting, and some good points raised by people answering the thread, Thanks 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Offshoot Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 I know this, I'll be checking LOS from my gunners mount a lot more closely....lesson learned? The question is then, how exactly do you do this? Someone has mentioned the grey targeting line but, as far as I know, this doesn't specifically mean that the TC can see the target but the gunner can't. Couldn't it also mean that the TC and gunner can see the target but the driver can't? We could also eyeball things, but that isn't sure fire either because what you see on the screen is not necessarily a 100% representation of the underlying geometry. If LOS vs gunner's LOF is the cause, then this issue really arises from a lack of information and the presence of information that is not necessarily what you might think it to be (LOS). Given that the main gun on a tank is its primary armament, wouldn't it make sense to be able to determine in-game exactly what the gunner can see? There are tools already in place to see if a unit has spotted another unit, so wouldn't an accurate LOF from the gunner be more useful than the current LOS indicator? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted September 17, 2013 Share Posted September 17, 2013 The question is then, how exactly do you do this? Someone has mentioned the grey targeting line but, as far as I know, this doesn't specifically mean that the TC can see the target but the gunner can't. Couldn't it also mean that the TC and gunner can see the target but the driver can't? We could also eyeball things, but that isn't sure fire either because what you see on the screen is not necessarily a 100% representation of the underlying geometry. If LOS vs gunner's LOF is the cause, then this issue really arises from a lack of information and the presence of information that is not necessarily what you might think it to be (LOS). Given that the main gun on a tank is its primary armament, wouldn't it make sense to be able to determine in-game exactly what the gunner can see? There are tools already in place to see if a unit has spotted another unit, so wouldn't an accurate LOF from the gunner be more useful than the current LOS indicator? Yes getting the view to know if the gunner's mount can see is going to be troublesome. Is the answer to judge LOF from the gunner solely? Maybe, but I can see that being problematic as well. For example, what impact is the facing going to have with that? I could be in position for good facing in one direction only to find that it was the only good direction and I have now selected a spot the rest of the crew can't give a decent all round awareness. Honestly I am not sure there is an easy solution and I am okay with that. I don't mind the vagaries of the game all that much. There are a few that push my particular buttons, but this isn't one. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GerryCMBB Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 I agree with Seedorf. What is the point if you move a tank to a nice ambush area, check LOS and there is good LOS to that area, and then you find out the gunner cannot see it. No point if the gunner doesn't have LOS. There are people on here that will make little of this, claiming wargaming is hell, so hard to code the AI, etc. Why not have LOS measured from the most important person in the tank, the gunner. Same thing happens I thing with ATGs. Please BF, try and make the game a little easier to play in terms of these issues. There is so much work involved in setting up tanks throughout the game. Too much work will eventually mean less fun for players. Gerry Wouldn't real soldiers make sure they (TC and gunner) had their LOF and LOS in order? Certainly in a nice ambush position like this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelson 1812 Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 "Target" perhaps should be gunners view only? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fenris Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 I can't remember... Does CM2 have the warning about hull MG LOS being blocked like was in CM1? Why not have a similar thing for the main gun? Seeing as it's probably far more important to the survival of the crew. Or does this exist already? I can't remember. Edit - so target command checks LOS from the bow MG, the main gun and the TC and lets you know if any of them can't see. -F 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brindlewolf Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 There could be an issue with the space taken up by a unit.Meaning though you can clearly see the target,you don't have a clear shot.You are looking at half a square gamewise because of the angle.I've even had this at times with infantry in urban combat with a side on view.Yup line of sight,blue line etc but i can't fire.It's just the way the game mechanics are sometimes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
z1812 Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 What I sometimes do with tanks when I think there may be an LOS/LOF problem is to move scouts to that position and check LOS with them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Interesting issue. Should the game compute LOS based on the main weapon or the unit as a whole? For a tank, if the gunner cannot see the target it's hard to understand the utility of showing a clear LOS. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 The CM2 LOS system would be fine if the system would automatically have the unit shift position so that it can fire at what one of the team members sees. The situation with MG's and guns is even more annoying than the above tank example as it's often the 3rd ammo bearer who can see the target, but the gun can't be moved the couple of inches so it can fire at the target, no matter what movement jiggery pokery one attempts. Because of that, the current system is not realistic, merely frustrating. Since the CM games are no way intended as first person shooters, it is inappropriate to have this sort of first person shooter challenge. A simpler LOS tool where if "the unit" can see the target, then "the unit prime weapon" can shoot at it would be so appreciated and make the game much more playable. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blackcat Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 "Should the game compute LOS based on the main weapon or the unit as a whole?" Mr. Flaming Picky would like to point out that the LOS in the game works pretty well. Its the LOF that causes problems and frustration. I have had MGs, AT guns, mortars and tanks with bright, solid lines of sight but when the enemy appeared could not actually fire. What has driven me up the wall on many occasions is that there is no way of actually knowing one has a problem in advance. Only when the enemy appears does one find out that and often by that time it is too late. If BF are going to do something about this, and I hope they do, then some indication the LOF from the main weapon is blocked would be the best way forward. On a related note could the MG deployment bug, as demonstrated on a recent AAR, be fixed as a matter of priority, please. For an MG team to rock up behind some bocage and deploy in such a manner as that the supporting players can fire through but the actual MG itself can't is, frankly, pretty pathetic. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Broadsword56 Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 BTW I *really* like the effect you got in those screenshots -- something about the sharpness of the models and the blur around them makes them hyper-realistic and look as if they were shot in the chaos of combat. What effects did you use and how did you use them? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted September 18, 2013 Author Share Posted September 18, 2013 BTW I *really* like the effect you got in those screenshots -- something about the sharpness of the models and the blur around them makes them hyper-realistic and look as if they were shot in the chaos of combat. What effects did you use and how did you use them? Yes Mr Nelson, very nice shots (I did not like the Panthers shot, but call me Mr Moan alot...) What have you used? I just used the fraps freebie to BMP and then converted to JPEG 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nelson 1812 Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 Edit facilities on photobucket.com ... Drat... your got me tip-toeing all over the map... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Holien Posted September 18, 2013 Author Share Posted September 18, 2013 You made the bloody map you should know where to tip toe... And you know what I have so come and find me... Enjoying it and I think the tourney players will as well... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted September 18, 2013 Share Posted September 18, 2013 The CM2 LOS system would be fine if the system would automatically have the unit shift position so that it can fire at what one of the team members sees. The problem with that is that if you are setting an ambush, you might not want your tank to give away its position by moving. In Holien's case, admittedly he would have had nothing to lose, but it is not hard to imagine a flock of players coming to the board to complain that their tank did not do the sane (and realistic) thing by sitting quietly until the target had moved into a more exposed position or simply gone on its way without spotting your tank. A simpler LOS tool where if "the unit" can see the target, then "the unit prime weapon" can shoot at it would be so appreciated and make the game much more playable. I think that is a much better solution, but it might not be in agreement with BFC's current design philosophy. But personally, I'd go with your idea. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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