Somewhat o/t recommendation

[LukeFF]

In fact, once they knew about the Winchester situation, the Luftwaffe pilots refused to shoot down the Americans, viewing it as unchivalrous and wrong.

Nonsense

...

[Childress]

No one watched that clip of Jimmy Stewart reading the poem???

Cute and touching, Wodin.

[Rokko]

Does the book mention why Stiegler didn't just force them to land in Germany or bail out? I guess that's what I'd have done.

[Childress]

One of the B-17's crew was severely wounded. The others refused to jump without him.

[Childress]

Childress,

On another note, I was talking to a friend about a case where a Luftwaffe pilot gunned one of our pilots in his chute. Without missing a beat, I was informed "His own squadron commander shot him down."

This keeps getting better and better! The story would be even cooler if the commander followed the bailed pilot down and turned him over to the Gestapo.

[Sgt Joch]

In fact, once they knew about the Winchester situation, the Luftwaffe pilots refused to shoot down the Americans, viewing it as unchivalrous .

at which point USAAF started carrying out all their missions without any MG ammo whatsoever, safe in the knowledge that the Jagdwaffe would let them go the target and back unharmed.

[LukeFF]

Next, JK will be telling us how a Tiger could be destroyed by skipping .50 cal rounds off the ground and into its underside.

[DasMorbo]

Talking about radical believes?

Talking about war crimes?

There's no straight 'good' and no straight 'bad' in no army!

I am a German myself so I am naturally focused on our army in WWII. I've been reading stuff about it for 20 years now. And I've read most horrific and chivalrous accounts playing on the same front, same division. I've read about battalions in which every member shot arithmetical 50 innocent Jews without a doubt - without being a Nazi just on orders! I've read accounts on Infantry Company Commanders on the Eastern Front who received the order to shoot commissars and civilians and - did nothing at all, but reporting back 'order fullfilled'. I read an account of a German fighter pilot downing a Sovjet bomber over wooded area for his first kill. He watched in horror, as the gunner of the bomber looked helpless back at him, plumbing to death. There were die-hard Nazis like Hans-Joachim Rudel, that famous Stuka pilot. And there were just as successful soldiers who were not at all Nazis. Like the father of a friend of mine, Erich Hohagen, 40-kill ace, flying the Me-262 at the end of the war - who was a good man caught up in a bad war without a chance of changing anything. All he could do was to try and survive.

All good and bad, white and black mixed up you get the color grey - dark grey for the Germans in WWII admittedly.

And here we enter today's reality. Was it nessecary to start two wars which killed 100.000 to 200.000 people minimum to stop and capture the perpetrators of a terroristic act that killed 3000? Where are all the good people now, stopping this senseless killing that is going on for twelve years? There are none who make a difference, neither in Europe nor in the US. Do I have to conclude that we are all straight-breed muslim-haters? I'll tell you what - they, the good people, are just as powerless today as were the clear-visioned Germans in Nazi-Germany who knew, what was going on is bad. The system was crooked and it was strong back then and it is just the same way now.

Problem back then was that weird believes, hatefulness, arrogance and greed were leading factors in decision-making back then - just as today. Back then it was an racial ideology, today it is the allmighty commerce.

After 20 years of reading I guess there were 5 percent die-hard Nazis at the start of the war and maybe 15 percent at the end of it. But they had the power. The rest were just adapting to the system.

So please stop painting the picture of the 'Evil Empire' - it just doesn't fit reality.

Best regards

Olf

P.S.: If you wanna know how this horrific **** happening in wars is created, read Phillip Zimbardo: 'The Lucifer Effect - How Good People Turn Evil'

http://www.amazon.de/Lucifer-Effect-Good-People-Turn/dp/1846041031/ref=sr_1_1?s=books-intl-de&ie=UTF8&qid=1367377444&sr=1-1&keywords=philip+zimbardo

[LukeFF]

So please stop painting the picture of the 'Evil Empire' - it just doesn't fit reality.

7 million Jews would beg to differ - if they could, that is.

[ASL Veteran]

Ahhh, so the USA of 2001 = Nazi Germany of 1939. Everything makes sense to me now.

[JonS]

Das Morbo, no one here is trying to paint every German alive in the 1940’s as evil. Germany, yes, but not the Germans. Well, not all of them.

There are, on the other hand, posters in this thread vigorously trying to push the barrow that the German armed forces consisted of a bunch of fun loving chivalrous dudes, relying for evidence on third hand Chinese-whispers, outright falsification of the historical record, and fallacy of composition.

What you are interpreting as an attack on all Germans is, instead, mainly a reaction to that.

[winkelried]

And there were just as successful soldiers who were not at all Nazis. Like the father of a friend of mine, Erich Hohagen, 40-kill ace, flying the Me-262 at the end of the war - who was a good man caught up in a bad war without a chance of changing anything. All he could do was to try and survive.

I heard this excuse a lot - when I talked with veterans and when we arrested some of those "followers". Not just from Germans. This attitude makes things possible like Srebrenica, Rwanda or Abu Ghraib.

It's too easy. Everybody carries part of the responsibility as a soldier. And every soldier or citizen can say no. Look at the Weisse Rose or what happened in Denmark in 1943.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

Originally Posted by Childress

Charlie Brown, the B-17 pilot, continued zestfully bombing German cities after Stigler's noble gesture. I have a bit of a problem with that.

Because there's always a few who need reminding: Germany were the bad guys in WWII.

Germany may well have been the bad guys but if you consider for one moment what the Luftwaffe pilot's decision led to, you might actually come to realise what an unbelieveably naive and idiotic one it was. If you put the boot on the other foot, would you have been happy if an RNZAF fighter pilot had deliberately decided not to shoot down a wounded Heinkel 111 which also appeared defenceless as it staggered back towards the French coast after having bombed London?

The bottom line is that the German pilot's decision not to either shoot down the wounded enemy bomber or force it to land in occupied territory meant that this American pilot could continue to conduct further bombing raids on his fellow countrymen. In that respect his actions were most definitely treasonous seeing as it almost certainly contributed to his fellow citizens being killed in future bombing runs. Good guys or bad guys don't enter into it.

Regards

KR

[Wodin]

Childress..thanks for watching it...the others here have no heart..War War War thats all they think about..

[Michael Emrys]

...the others here have no heart..War War War thats all they think about..

That's what we're here for. When I want poetry or anything else civilized I go somewhere else.

Michael

[altipueri]

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,

And the women come out to cut up what remains,

Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains

Kipling

[altipueri]

If your officer's dead and the sergeants look white,

Remember it's ruin to run from a fight:

So take open order, lie down, and sit tight,

And wait for supports like a soldier.

Wait, wait, wait like a soldier...

Kipling , again. You've got me going now.

[Wodin]

That's what we're here for. When I want poetry or anything else civilized I go somewhere else.

Michael

I was only messing..but it is a very moving poem read by Jimmy Stewart about his dog.

[Childress]

From the Daily Mail:

As Stigler drew closer he saw the gunner covered in blood, and how part of the plane's outside had been ripped off. And he saw the wounded, terrified US airmen inside, trying to help one another tend to their injuries.

It was then he remembered the words of his commanding officer Lt Gustav Roedel. 'Honour is everything here,' he had told a young Stigler before his first mission. The senior airman added: 'If I ever see or hear of you shooting at a man in a parachute, I will shoot you down myself.

'You follow the rules of war for you - not for your enemy. You fight by rules to keep your humanity. 'For me it would have been the same as shooting at a parachute, I just couldn't do it,' Stigler later said.

Florida Governor Bush honours Brown and Stigler in 2001:

[Childress]

The bottom line is that the German pilot's decision not to either shoot down the wounded enemy bomber or force it to land in occupied territory meant that this American pilot could continue to conduct further bombing raids on his fellow countrymen. In that respect his actions were most definitely treasonous seeing as it almost certainly contributed to his fellow citizens being killed in future bombing runs. Good guys or bad guys don't enter into it.

Your comments possess a brutal logic. The conclusion is akin to aborting a foetus which reveals a birth defect in order to preserve the integrity of the gene pool. Also brutally logical.

[dieseltaylor]

On the scale of acts of unbelievable restraint in one of my readings I have a German horse battery being allowed to travel down a road between resting tanks - this AFAIR in Italy.

I found that amazing verging on the unbelievable, and the trouble is its not the kind of thing that if true the tankers would report back on. I suspect that shooting horses was the main reason that no one could bring themselves to do the deed.

Now all I have to do is find the darn book : (

[mjkerner]

When you're wounded and left on Afghanistan's plains,

And the women come out to cut up what remains,

Jest roll to your rifle and blow out your brains

Kipling

...and go to yer God like a Sojer!

[Sgt Joch]

you also have Saburo Sakai, the great Japanese ace (64 kills), that spared a transport plane carrying civilians in 1942.

Early in 1942, Sakai was transferred to Tarakan Island in Borneo and fought in the Dutch East Indies. The Japanese high command had instructed fighter patrols to down all enemy aircraft encountered, whether they were armed or not. On a patrol with his Zero over Java, just after shooting down an enemy aircraft, Sakai encountered a civilian Dutch Douglas DC-3 flying at low altitude over dense jungle. Sakai initially assumed it was transporting important people and signaled to its pilot to follow him; the pilot did not obey. Sakai came down and got much closer to the DC-3. He spotted a blonde woman and a young child through the window, along with other passengers. The woman reminded him of Mrs. Martin, an American who had occasionally taught him as a child in middle school and had been good to him. He decided to ignore his orders and flew ahead of the pilot, signaling him to go ahead. The pilot and passengers saluted

wiki mentions an unreliable source, but you can find the same story in his 1957 autobiography "Samurai".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabur%C5%8D_Sakai

[dieseltaylor]

There is no doubt that chivalric acts and barbaric acts were carried out by people from all nations during wars. I don't see much point in banging on about the past other than to draw lessons from why wars are fought. In any population you will find a mix of numskulls, psychopaths and good people who may be persuaded what they do is necessary.

The problems is perhaps the politicians who shape the "problem" to get some buy in for war. Without going into the whys and wherefores I am incensed that Tony Blair now has a personal fortune of £20M / $30M acquired after he stopped being Prime Minister. You might think that giving a major chunk to those who have suffered from his decision would be nice.

Would nations go to war if it was the leaders who had to fight first ... or their children.

[Erwin]

All good points. And look at Karzai and his warlord gang/govt (all living in Dubai mansions) who have been ripping off the US taxpayer from the very start. Only now it's being talked about openly.

The biggest threat to our democracy is the elected officials being removed from any of the concerns of the "common folks". They have their own pensions, medical etc etc so why would they worry about their constituents... the voters that is. They certainly are concerned about their much more important funding lobbyists of course. They even "adjusted" the sequester cuts to the FAA at lightening speed when they realized it affected their own flights home.