Somewhat o/t recommendation

[Sublime]

In fact I was thinking about this thread earlier and one could argue the least Nazified element of the German Armed Forces would be the Kriegsmarine no?

[LukeFF]

In fact I was thinking about this thread earlier and one could argue the least Nazified element of the German Armed Forces would be the Kriegsmarine no?

Not really. Just because many of its members were not members of the Nazi party per se doesn't mean they didn't agree with the Nazi party agenda.

[dieseltaylor]

Not really. Just because many of its members were not members of the Nazi party per se doesn't mean they didn't agree with the Nazi party agenda.

Interesting line of reasoning but given the lack of indicators to go by percentage membership does seem a highly logical indicator.

PS 43% of the vote gained in 1933 - they were supported by a lot of non-members.

PPS. You could see this one of their platform being pretty universally popular now:

12. In consideration of the monstrous sacrifice in property and blood that each war demands of the people personal enrichment through a war must be designated as a crime against the people. Therefore we demand the total confiscation of all war profits. ]

[LukeFF]

Interesting line of reasoning but given the lack of indicators to go by percentage membership does seem a highly logical indicator.

PS 43% of the vote gained in 1933 - they were supported by a lot of non-members.

Except that it's not. I've read enough memoirs by surviving KM personnel to know that they - and the KM in general - supported the Nazi ideology.

And, of course there's Karl Doenitz...

[JonS]

It's a bit absurd trying to figure out which of the German services had the biggest hard-on for Hitler, so perhaps we can agree that they ALL at one time or another actively and vigorously courted Hitler's favour.

This is, of course, a different position to the one Childress tried to put over that the GAF was somehow a-political.

[winkelried]

It's a bit absurd trying to figure out which of the German services had the biggest hard-on for Hitler, so perhaps we can agree that they ALL at one time or another actively and vigorously courted Hitler's favour.

This is, of course, a different position to the one Childress tried to put over that the GAF was somehow a-political.

I concur with you statement JonS. All branches of the Wehrmacht were instrumental for the consolidation of the Nazi regime in the 30s and all bear their part of the responsibility of the human disaster which followed - to create a gradual index is quite absurd.

And some exponents of the Luftwaffe get forgotten in this context: Albert Kesselring, Kurt Mälzer (just to name two examples) - under their responsibility, or direct orders, massacres like the one of the Fosse Ardeatine were committed. Also Luftwaffe ground troops, e.g. the Fallschirm Panzer Division Hermann Göring were involved in war crimes ...

BTW: Before and early in the war the air aces of the Luftwaffe were willing instruments of the Nazi propaganda - despite that some did what pilots do when the situation goes out of control -they bail out (see Wever, Udet ... and later just to confirm the pattern Göring, Greim, ...) - there were just a very few who tried to resist actively in the Luftwaffe like Caesar von Hofacker or Herbert Gollnow.

[Lt Bull]

The Allied bomber forces suffered extreme casualties: 5,000 of 17,000 bombers built were destroyed. They lost 160,000 men.

This is a most curious/odd statistic if true or correctly quoted.

17,000 bombers built and 160,000 men lost???

I am assuming lost essentially means dead/died/unaccounted for (not just wounded) as a result of action as a crewman on one for the 17,000 bomber.

That means that for every allied bomber built, on average 9.4 crewman would end up being killed/lost etc in some way. That's more than what would be the average number of crew aboard allied bombers. Who knows how many more would have been wounded.

As reference, crew of a B-25 was 6 and for a B-17 it was 10.

I have read some sources say the average lifespan of WW2 bomber pilots was around 5-6 missions.

Do the math.

[JonS]

A quick and simple check provides these figures.

Bomber Command:

55,573 KIA

8,403 WIA

9,838 POW

8,325 aircraft lost in action

(7,500 Lancaster, 6,000 Halifax, 2,000 Stirling built)

US 8th Air Force:

26,000 KIA

23,000 POW

6,866 B-17 and B-24 lost (All of ETO, all causes)

(13,000 B-17 and 19,000 B-24 built)

Combined:

~82,000 KIA

~123,000 total cas.

~15,000 a/c lost

[Rokko]

Interesting.

Why did the US have so much more POWs and only about half the KIA despite losing only about 25% fewer planes? Could it have something to do with the fact that the British mostly did night raids? That's the only explanation I could think of right now.

[Lt Bull]

A quick and simple check provides these figures.

Bomber Command:

55,573 KIA

8,403 WIA

9,838 POW

8,325 aircraft lost in action

(7,500 Lancaster, 6,000 Halifax, 2,000 Stirling built)

US 8th Air Force:

26,000 KIA

23,000 POW

6,866 B-17 and B-24 lost (All of ETO, all causes)

(13,000 B-17 and 19,000 B-24 built)

Combined:

~82,000 KIA

~123,000 total cas.

~15,000 a/c lost

This conflicts with what Childress quoted, I am assuming, from some book (that book?). :confused:

[Childress]

This conflicts with what Childress quoted, I am assuming, from some book (that book?). :confused:

The 160,000 casualty figure is from Wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strategic_bombing_during_World_War_II

Their tally of destroyed planes is higher. The other stats are from various sources.

[JasonC]

8th Air Force wasn't the only component of the US side of the strategic bombing campaign. There were forces in the Med, operating from Italy later in the war, etc. Just one possible origin for the numerical discrepancy...

[Sgt Joch]

In terms of politicization, I was always under the impression that the Kriegsmarine was less politicized than the other two at the beginning of the war, although all branches had their share of Nazis.

You also had a process of increased Nazification of all services as the war progressed. In all three services, as losses mounted, new recruits were brought in which had grown up in Nazi Germany and were indoctrinated in Nazi ideology. Hitler also gradually replaced officers in the Armed forces with ardent Nazis who were completely loyal to him, like Model.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Model

Lets also not forget what happened to officers who dared to question the regime, like Oskar Kusch...

http://www.uboat.net/men/kusch.htm

..or Rommel..

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erwin_Rommel#Plot_against_Hitler

..or Blomberg...

There were also rumours that Werner Molders was assassinated by the Gestapo and his body dropped from a plane after he turned against the Nazis for their persecution of catholics.

[John Kettler]

JonS,

Apropos of Luftwaffe pilot chivalry, read Hans Scharff's THE INTERROGATOR. He was the man in that field for interrogating downed American pilots. One of the key questions was "What is that stream of red tracer about?" Turns out it was to signal the pilot he was out of ammo. The info was duly passed to the combat units, but resulted in no increased shootdowns of now known to be terribly vulnerable American pilots. In fact, once they knew about the Winchester situation, the Luftwaffe pilots refused to shoot down the Americans, viewing it as unchivalrous and wrong.

Blackcat,

You beat me to it on Catch 22. Then, of course, there's Klinger's plight in M.A.S.H.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Childress]

He did more than act:

(Clark) Gable flew five combat missions, including one to Germany, as an observer-gunner in B-17 Flying Fortresses between May 4 and September 23, 1943, earning the Air Medal and the Distinguished Flying Cross for his efforts. During one of the missions, Gable's aircraft was damaged by flak and attacked by fighters, which knocked out one of the engines and shot up the stabilizer. In the raid on Germany, one crewman was killed and two others were wounded, and flak went through Gable's boot and narrowly missed his head. When word of this reached MGM, studio executives began to badger the U.S. Army Air Corps to reassign their most valuable screen property to non-combat duty. In November 1943, he returned to the United States to edit the film, only to find that the personnel shortage of aerial gunners had already been rectified. He was allowed to complete the film anyway, joining the 1st Motion Picture Unit in Hollywood.

[Wodin]

Jimmy Stewart was another airman if I remember properly.

Moving clip of Jimmy reading a poem he worte about his dog on Wogan...watch without getting a tear in your eye..

[mjkerner]

And unlike Gable, he had over 30 combst missions, and flew when he technically didn't need to as a Squadron Commander.

[Childress]

...The Luftwaffe pilots refused to shoot down the Americans, viewing it as unchivalrous and wrong.

Atta boy, John.

[JonS]

You know, if Kettler told you the sky is blue it would be well worth your while to nip outside and check. There is a very good reason that "kettlerian" is a widely understood phrase.

To put that another way; having Kettler "on your side" is never helpful.

[Childress]

I trust JK implicitly. I even pardon him for giving away, via a video link, the plot of the book in the thread's 3rd post.

Gotta run. Someone on Ebay just outbid me for an authentic Luftwaffe crush cap with 12 minutes left. Apparently they're super popular. Who knew?

[JonS]

I trust JK implicitly.

That figures.

[John Kettler]

JonS,

Read the book I named and stop retreating into your incessant and puerile Kettler bashing/slanging me. Here, I'll help you. Start with the reviews.

http://www.amazon.com/Interrogator-Joachim-Luftwaffe-Schiffer-Military/dp/0764302612

Scharff vs Cheney

http://www.theatlantic.com/daily-dish/archive/2009/04/cheneys-standards-lower-than-the-luftwaffes/202775/

Also, since you mentioned about the sky's being blue, do treat us, please, to a complete, thoroughly argued explanation of all the factors involved, citing all appropriate science theories. That should tie you up long enough for the rest of us to enjoy our discussion in peace!

Childress,

I never claimed perfection--and have yet to achieve it.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Childress]

I never claimed perfection--and have yet to achieve it.

Your 90% there, John. That explains, I believe, the enduring friction with Jon. You're both near perfect beings.

[John Kettler]

Childress,

Cracked me up! Thanks for the laugh! On another note, I was talking to a friend about a case where a Luftwaffe pilot gunned one of our pilots in his chute. Without missing a beat, I was informed "His own squadron commander shot him down." I have no independent confirmation of this story, but it wouldn't shock me. No luck so far on finding any account online, positive or negative, on the red tracer thing.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Wodin]

No one watched that clip of Jimmy Stewart reading the poem???