Gustav Line Beta AAR Round Two PEANUT GALLERY

[womble]

Though we all mocked the Borg spotting, it allowed neophytes to put up a good show against the old soldiers...

You really think it would have made very much difference in this (or any) scenario? I doubt it very much. You still need LOF to fire, even if another pair of eyes firmed the contact up into a targetable solution. GaJ might have gotten one of the IVs, but the Germans have had similar situations where a potent weapon system had LOS but no target.

Personally, I don't think "Borg" spotting evens any kind of playing field between the skilled and the debutant; the better player will make better use of whatever game systems apply.

[Vark]

Sorry, most of the time GaJ is frustrated by his lack of eyes on Bill's forces, and many units fail to fire. As attacker, the stay behind telepathic sharpshooter, destroyed many concealed approaches, if this were a CM1 game, yes GaJ would have had a fighting chance, he'd be able to detect and discern Bill's intent far quicker and that is often the key to a successful defence.

For the attacker in CM1, borg spotting allowed an unrealistic speed and weight of fire that could eliminate many defensive assets, but only after they had revealed themselves at the most efficient and devastating time. Don't forget also that trenches were far more effective. So CM1 was far easier to play as defender.

[womble]

For the attacker in CM1, borg spotting allowed an unrealistic speed and weight of fire that could eliminate many defensive assets, but only after they had revealed themselves at the most efficient and devastating time.

"Revealed themselves", rather than having been uncovered by effective reconnaisance? Better players will find poorer players' assets and blast them with borgy focus fire.

Trenches and such were free in x1, IIRC, too, and the QB points ratios were more in their favour. That makes it easier to defend, whether you're the better player or not, it doesn't change the balance of skill. Yes, those factors would have assisted GaJ in this game, but they would also have assisted Bil, had he been the defender.

[TheVulture]

Trenches and such were free in x1, IIRC, too, and the QB points ratios were more in their favour.

Foxholes were free for the defender in some battle types. IIRC in assault battles the defender also got "fallback" foxhole positions - i.e. they basically for 2 foxholes for every unit. Trenches and other fortifications always had to be paid for though from what I remember.

[Vark]

10 points for a trench, IIRC. Would be interesting to run a CMGL and CMAK scenario side by side, similar terrain, force mix and play it simultaneously. I'm not saying skill is made redundant, and the end result probably not much different, but the butchers bill and the opportunities for fast and furious action, would be greater.

Don't also forget the lack of resupply means infantry rapidly burn through their ammo, in attacks and the screen line, backed by support weapons could stop most scouting attempts unless heavily reinforced. Jason used to wax lyrical about scouting with a pair of tanks supported by a reinforced platoon and expect to loose half, GaJ is unlikely to even get this number of kills and he is a competent player.

So my point stands, CM1 allowed lesser able players to compete and give a better showing, defeated most likely, but able to console themselves with a few moments of inflicting pain on their opponent. CM2 does not allow this ability, with relative spotting, placement and movement of units is key, and this is the hardest thing for non-military players to master, especially as terrain has more fidelity and granularity.

You did get fall back fox holes, but try to use them without losing most of the relocating squad! Oh the memories of my pixel troopers twitching until one man finally lay spread-eagled.

[ASL Veteran]

I feel the need to interject a point on Bil's behalf regarding the 'Bil made the map' thing people are getting hung up on. For Bil's AAR vs Normal Dude with the base game, Normal Dude made the entire scenario - map, units, length, setting, etc, and he had even play tested it a couple of times. So really, all the evidence is available to come to the conclusion that Bil's previous knowledge of the map was probably irrelevant.

[Vark]

Yup, whatever map Bil plays on, he will bring his tactical expertise to and you will be leaving with a sore bottom, after a severe spanking. He will : analyse terrain, draw up his FRAGO, state his commanders intent and you better have a similar knowledge and maintenance of purpose, not just be there to push a few pixel soldiers and have some fun.

Therein could be CM's Achilles heel, the sheer effort needed to have a decent game might put people off who liked the rough and ready approach to CM1, as the Danish review said perhaps, as it strives for ever greater fidelity, it is becoming 'soulless'. For some, less a game, more a rewarding project.

[sburke]

Well assuming that CMx2 allows a better fidelity and therefore rewards real world tactics better than Cmx1 I am not sure how that really affects the enjoyment level. If you play someone of similar skill and style you can still enjoy it at whatever level you play. For veteran and skilled players however it allows them to not feel learning tactics is a waste.

I really like seeing the game reward Bil's training. Granted I am not trained and could spend a month reviewing the map and forces and never come up with a plan like that. I like however knowing that the game will reward my learning them. Hopefully we can keep Bil churning out AARs for us to learn from. Hmm maybe a BF forum - Bil's school of hard knocks.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I don't feel that I put any more effort into my PBEM turns than I did in CMx1. The games run at a more realistically deliberate pace and therefore take more turns to play, but the individual turns are not particularly demanding.

CMx1 may have been a little more "beer and pretzels", but to suggest that CMx2 is soulless is way off the mark, IMO. I find myself caring more for my CMx2 pixeltruppen than I did for their CMx1 predecessors.

[sburke]

CMx1 may have been a little more "beer and pretzels", but to suggest that CMx2 is soulless is way off the mark, IMO. I find myself caring more for my CMx2 pixeltruppen than I did for their CMx1 predecessors.

+1 on that. If anything CMx2 has me much more attuned to my units, particularly the infantry. Ahh some of my heroes, Probst, Hardenberger, Uldall. Individuals from games one of which is almost 2 years past now. "Soulless" simply tells me that reviewer doesn't pay enough attention and is missing out on a lot of the fun of the game.

[Vark]

You can't just dive in and play like CM1, errors were punished then, but the situation was recoverable, now you can get crucified and have you plan so dislocated you struggle to recover. More effort is needed simply because there are more options, and the timing is far more important. Terrain has to be studied in far greater depth, especially with the 1:1 representation. Resupply adds another area CM 1 ignored, but it means a another task to consider as does indirect fire, with its area, linear, point options and intensity and duration of fire. And for me the real turn off, the searching around to find units and see if they are in command control.

As for the soulless suggestion, that came from umlauts excellent translation of a Danish gaming magazines review, they thought the game was becoming perhaps more clinical. ' The design gets more and more technical, more realistic, more engineer-ish and thus - perhaps - a little more soulless.' Anyway, take it up with them, though I do know other games that sought greater and greater 'realism' lost something intangible, but important nevertheless. I find I'm playing far less CM2 than CM1, due to time constraints but also the effort needed to have fun with the engine. CM was not beer and pretzels, that goes to SP and similar games, but it was more engaging, CM2 does feel more remote IMHO.

[GerryCMBB]

An interesting discussion. I must say that watching this AAR for me is more like watching some clinical operation taking place. I think it is very boring. Seems more like completing a work project than having fun in a wargame.

Gerry

[Michael Emrys]

This then raises the question, was CM1 more fun to play for the average gamer?

Speaking personally, I think so at the time due to a number of factors including what a new departure the CM system was then. But it is very questionable that I would find it as much fun now. CMx2 could use some revamping in the sheer fun department, but it is a vastly improved basis to build that on. I think incremental improvements that make it less laborious will make it more fun. But I question whether it can ever regain the simplicity that made CMx1 a relative breeze to play.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Whatever. It's enormously entertaining for me. If you don't like CMx2 because it's too realistic and makes your brain hurt then go play something less realistic.

[Michael Emrys]

Yup, whatever map Bil plays on, he will bring his tactical expertise to and you will be leaving with a sore bottom, after a severe spanking. He will : analyse terrain, draw up his FRAGO, state his commanders intent and you better have a similar knowledge and maintenance of purpose, not just be there to push a few pixel soldiers and have some fun.

Therein could be CM's Achilles heel, the sheer effort needed to have a decent game might put people off who liked the rough and ready approach to CM1, as the Danish review said perhaps, as it strives for ever greater fidelity, it is becoming 'soulless'. For some, less a game, more a rewarding project.

But how many players are of Bil's caliber? I should think very few, and that means that a merely average player should have little or no problem finding an opponent in their weight class.

Michael

[sburke]

Whatever. It's enormously entertaining for me. If you don't like CMx2 because it's too realistic and makes your brain hurt then go play something less realistic.

LOL I hear you can still get CMx1 games.

Personally I am just about to the two year mark with Broadsword as a PBEM opponent/collaborator and it has been the best years of my gaming life period. Granted neither of us is the tactician Bil is, but we have a similar mindset about what we like in the game and neither of us would ever consider going back to CMx1. I think what we like is you get back from CM what you put into it. If you want someone else to do all the work for you or an auto generator to create stuff, well you are mostly out of luck or dependent on others generating material. If however you are willing to dive in and struggle with it, you will be rewarded.

Life is like that, you are either a spectator or a participant.

[c3k]

I feel the need to interject a point on Bil's behalf regarding the 'Bil made the map' thing people are getting hung up on. For Bil's AAR vs Normal Dude with the base game, Normal Dude made the entire scenario - map, units, length, setting, etc, and he had even play tested it a couple of times. So really, all the evidence is available to come to the conclusion that Bil's previous knowledge of the map was probably irrelevant.

^^^

Agreed. Making the map does NOT make the battle. The battle is a dance. A pas de deux, sometimes under the moonlight with wine, other times in sweaty clothes on a cluttered desk with a stale beer and a burnt out cigarette whose ash is perilously dangling over the keyboard as the unshaven player squints at the screen and tries to ignore the plaintive wailing of his long-ignored wife. Ooops. That reminds me: I've got to go.

[PanzerMiller]

I vote for getting back on topic...don't we have enough threads on this forum about personal preferences for CMx vs. Company of Heroes??

[Vark]

Ok, sweepstake, the big, heavy, tank destroyers gun is about to sing, question is when? How many turns before the inevitable concession by GaJ? Bil's next assault will smash through GaJ's rear defences and even if, miracle of miracles, his surviving M-10's kill a tank a piece, so what.

[John Kettler]

Panzer Miller,

Fair point. This battle, so far at least, reminds me a bit of what Uday Hussein did to those who displeased him. He had them slowly fed into a chipper. That is precisely what Bil seems to be doing to GreenAsJade's forces. Sure, something he does may make the thing bind up a bit and slow for a time. That in no way changes the fundamental process which is occurring.

From where I sit (nowhere close to Olympus and decidedly deficient in ambrosia and omniscience), GreenAsJade, were he a plane, increasingly resembles the pilot running out of fuel, altitude and ideas. I do know this. Every loss he takes further increases the force ratio against him, diminishes his tactical options and allows Bil to hem him in further, thus accelerating the chipping. Realistically, he can't count on Bil's making a mistake, certainly not a game changer. Bil's too methodical and cautious for that. GreenAsJade may have a rabbit under his hat and an ace up his sleeve (haven't compared his losses to initial force), but if I'm right, he has precious little in the way of mobile forces, and Bil can and will find, Spot and ruthlessly eliminate every fixed defense he can. Ere long, GreenAsJade will essentially have no organized defense.

While I have grave doubts as to the real world applicability of Bil's meticulous tactical style while sleep deprived, under shelling and air attack, with supply issues and unrelenting pressure from higher up to get the job done yesterday, there's no denying it's working great here. Bil's waging his tiny war Montgomery style, not Patton style. I'd use German commanders, but I can't offhand come up with a German Monty type.

The Israeli Army has a battle planning drill for future leaders. "Regimental attack against threat X at location Y. Full OPORD and the works. Jumpoff in 24 hours!" Halfway through that combat planning, word arrives that things have gotten more urgent. "Sorry, but we need it in twelve hours. Get cracking." Next thing you know, it's two! The point of this is to teach commanders to make swift decisions and to execute them on the fly. This is one of the key advantages the Israeli Army has had over its foes.

I think Bil's approach is far more doable in the laboratory (GL) than in real combat where all manner of things work to screw up plans in general, let alone the chess master approach Bil has to warfare. I think warfare, with all the chaos, confusion, sleep deprivation, conflicting instructions, unforeseen terrain issues, multiple complex system breakdowns, enemy action, entropy, etc., more nearly resembles speed chess (in a sawmill) than regular chess in a quiet, calm place. Were the battle tempo to be significantly increased, were there to be no time for CSI type shot origin analyses, were recon more constrained, would he be able to plan and execute as well as he has? I have my doubts. Maybe one day, once I figure out how to really play this game, I'll have a go at him. Please keep the ambulance jeep nearby!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Alan8325]

Indeed, in real life you can't take a day to contemplate your next move for each individual minute of the battle. Moving quickly can knock your opponent off balance and loosen their grasp on the situation, but it's tough to create this kind of effect in a turn-based game. I hope that someday CM has a full-battle replay feature that can be used on real-time battles. The current AAR between GaJ and Bil is probably on too large a scenario to be played in real-time, but smaller real-time AARs made by taking screenshots from a full replay feature would be fun to watch.

A semi-real-time AAR could probably be done now by having pre-negotiated pause times, maybe every 5 minutes or so, to upload screenshots and post on the forum.

[John Kettler]

Alan8325,

If we moved this fight to a gaming convention and set, say, a per turn limit of half an hour, to be spent however desired, but a firm deadline for next turn submission to the foe, then the fundamental dynamics of the battle would, in my view change and drastically at that. Now, we'd be in a more compressed version of Patton's "A good plan.." dictum. Or, as we used to (shudder) say in my military aerospace days, "close enough for government work."

Naturally, there'd be a sleep-draining overnight period for frantic battle planning (about right for the real world assembly of an attack like this; maybe even generous; GreenAsJade to have more time to reflect his better knowledge of the ground, range card prep, etc.), after which the dogs of war would be let slip. While I'm sure the result wouldn't be an FPS frag fest, neither would it have the present pace, for there simply wouldn't be time, the one thing a a leader in battle never seems to have enough of.

I'm not saying I could hack such an arrangement (should've seen me when it got hairy in Barkmann's Corner, and that was vs AI), but I think it would greatly enliven the proceedings and might be a way of bringing new blood into our hobby. I have very fond memories, in particular, of playing the CMBB Beta Demo over at Actor's house, where my team had the use of a digital projector. CMBB on a 6' wide screen. Now, that's immersion! Michael Emrys, who was there if memory serves, may recall what the turn cycle time was.

I understand that this is much more than a mere clash of warriors, but is, in fact, a kind of highbrow marketing presentation, wherein the features and benefits of the new product (GL) are displayed. While there are no observable hot marketing gals in evening gowns or bikinis, we do have some splendid support graphics and virtual VO work, reminiscent of those defense product marketing films I used to see. Thoughts?

Regards,

John Kettler

[Michael Emrys]

Michael Emrys, who was there if memory serves...

Nope, sorry, t'weren't me.

Michael

[John Kettler]

Michael Emrys,

Were you at the other one, the CMAK Demo? Would swear I met you at one of the private Demos, and have been to only two.

Regards,

John Kettler

[womble]

If we moved this fight to a gaming convention and set, say, a per turn limit of half an hour...

A minute per element. You're doing the thinking and reacting for every NCO on the table...