Hooooooraaa!!!

[76mm]

Nearly every time the situation became obviously hopeless the troops in the East eventually surrendered, even if after a desperate defense.

I don't know enough about the war in the Pacific to compare the two, but the statement above is not correct. While it is true enough that entire armies/garrisons did not fight to the last man, at the tactical level I don't see how you can say that troops in Russia surrendered "nearly every time"?

[ASL Veteran]

I don't know enough about the war in the Pacific to compare the two, but the statement above is not correct. While it is true enough that entire armies/garrisons did not fight to the last man, at the tactical level I don't see how you can say that troops in Russia surrendered "nearly every time"?

I also think that there are too many variables as well. It would be different in 1941 than in 1944 and it would also be different depending upon if there is a unit full of 'liberated' Ukrainians or a group of SS fighting a Red Banner unit (At least the Germans referred to Red Banner units, but I'm a little shaky on what that means exactly from the Soviet perspective).

[Sublime]

No I don't think on the tactical level they surrounded nearly every time. However, if you look at any major Pacific island hopping campaign, troops on the operational/strategic level wouldn't surrender in a hopeless situation and fight to the last man.

You can point to similar scenarios tactically in the East but not for groups of soldiers numbering 20k, or larger. (Such as Pelelieu, Saipan, Tarawa, Iwo Jima, Okinawa, Guadalcanal, - I can go on?)

In the East the fighting obviously was savage. We all know that. And it is silly to compare the two, but I responding to a silly post in the first place. But now the arguments been made prove me wrong - on a similar level show me an example thats similar on the East? MAYBE you could say Stalingrad for 62nd Army, but even then it became apparent the situation wasn't as hopeless as it seemed and they weren't defending an island with no way off.

[massive1974]

In the East the fighting obviously was savage. We all know that. And it is silly to compare the two, but I responding to a silly post in the first place. But now the arguments been made prove me wrong - on a similar level show me an example thats similar on the East? MAYBE you could say Stalingrad for 62nd Army, but even then it became apparent the situation wasn't as hopeless as it seemed and they weren't defending an island with no way off.

My first post was not meant to be a historically accurate assessment of the comparative percentages of prisoners taken in the East or the Pacific and thereby to draw far reaching conclusions as to which front was tougher or not. It was a joke about why I prefer the Eastern front setting for the CM games.

Now that it's gotten all so serious, I still don't claim this to be a basis of comparison yet I think compare we can. But not numbers of prisoners. If anything, ideologies and goals (or ideological goals) are a better indicator of how each of these environments were. In the East, Germany was fighting a war of annihilation against Bolshevism and races they regarded as subhuman (Slavs, Jews, etc.). That and the fact that the Soviets wouldn’t give up so easily gives you the mindset with which they fought and the corner in which the Soviets were backed into. They might have given themselves up in great (actually huge) numbers initially but what happened to them? They died by the millions in German captivity (3.3 to 3.5 million, about 60% of all Soviet POWs). How's that for tough?

In the Pacific we obviously have a totally different situation and ideologies. But you can't say that either side was out to totally annihilate any trace of the other and made an official policy of this.

I know that this is way beyond the scope of the game itself and of the strictly military strategy level but for history, I think it's relevant.

[Sublime]

It is beyond the scope of the game. But it's simply conversation for conversations sake - thats what the forum is for no? I never meant for things to be 'serious' or 'not serious'.

Though ideologically the Soviets vs Germans was a 'war of annihilation' I think thats just really rhetoric. Of course had the Nazi's prevailed, I'm sure you would have seen something close to annihilation for most of the Russian population. Still - the Soviets won and there was no large scale annihilation of the Germans. Severe penalties? Rapes? Killlings? Millions of prisoners doing forced labor in Siberia? Yes.

If you've ever read any of my posts you'll see I prefer the East Front to all the other theaters as well. But the older I get, and more military history I read, I find that casualty figures are a deceptive thing. Just because one war has a bunch more casualties than another doesn't mean necessarily the combat was any less intense. For example, I often hear people make snide comments about the US in Iraq and the 'small' amount of war dead. This is a deceptive statistic, for one we have an excellent casualty evacuation system, and so if you're not KIA immediately chances are you're going to make it. We DO have A LOT of WIA. Still - if you're one of the casualties I'm sure the Iraq war felt just as serious and intense as war felt to grunts in Vietnam, or soldiers in WW2.

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

I definitely take your point regarding the difficulty of acquiring and engaging ground targets while at speed. In a talk regarding characteristics needed in Pierre Sprey's Blitzfighter, Rudel specifically mentions this issue. Gun camera film confirms it, and the Russians were coming in a lot faster and were nowhere nearly as skilled as he was. To put it mildly!

And who can forget this, er, brief thread over on CMBB?

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=41684

Regards,

John Kettler

[JasonC]

Well yes, and also Rudel was a Baron Munchausen quality liar, so there's that. But why bring it up again?

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Rudel wasn't a natural. In fact, he was so bad he was lucky to get into combat. There, apparently by force of will, he finally sorted himself out as a pilot. This is part of a very long interview set with another Stuka pilot.

There's some previously unseen by me Ju-87G tank attack footage in here. Would also add that the apparent secret of his rapid recoveries from injuries lay in his superb athletic conditioning. There's a German newsreel showing him working out in a bunch of Olympic type exercises, and the guy's muscle, sinew and a health nut.

Regards,

John Kettler

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

Many of the film links are still good, and I think it worthwhile for people to see the gun camera film of tank attacks. Target acquisition is, of course, further degraded by being shot at in the process, while flying a heavily loaded and hard to maneuver aircraft!

Regards,

John Kettler

[Elmar Bijlsma]

massive1974,

you need to read up on the WW2 Pacific and specifically the behaviour of the Japanese if you think that the Germans were the big racist baddies of WW2.

The behaviour of Japanese combat and garrison units makes most SS units look like a hippie commune. The Japanese had a deeply entrenched racism towards, well, everyone else. They murdered fellow Asians by the millions without needing to industrialize the process.

[massive1974]

For example, I often hear people make snide comments about the US in Iraq and the 'small' amount of war dead. This is a deceptive statistic, for one we have an excellent casualty evacuation system, and so if you're not KIA immediately chances are you're going to make it. We DO have A LOT of WIA. Still - if you're one of the casualties I'm sure the Iraq war felt just as serious and intense as war felt to grunts in Vietnam, or soldiers in WW2.

I totally agree with this point. The Iraq war is the best example of how intense a conflict can be and yet you couldn't tell by the number of dead because of advanced casevac and medevac. And still, look at the number of suicides after they get home. This is speculation territory but I think it's no accident that the number of survivable injuries increased together with the number of suicides. Take the joint NFL- Army studies, I think they're still ongoing and they seem to focus on the huge number of survivable concussions injuries from IEDs etc whose long-term effects might lead to suicides.

But I have to disagree a little bit on your first point. I think there was a fundamental difference between the racist ideology of the Nazis versus the class-based ideology of the Soviets. That's the reason why you don't see large-scale extermination by the Soviets after or during the war.

[massive1974]

massive1974,

you need to read up on the WW2 Pacific and specifically the behaviour of the Japanese if you think that the Germans were the big racist baddies of WW2.

The behaviour of Japanese combat and garrison units makes most SS units look like a hippie commune. The Japanese had a deeply entrenched racism towards, well, everyone else. They murdered fellow Asians by the millions without needing to industrialize the process.

Did the Japanese have official guidelines, policies for the extermination of races or peoples? Did their government consciously organize and systematically perpetrate these crimes? Did they make and enforce racial laws anywhere? Was their end-goal the annihilation of certain races and peoples either in their own society or around the world? I think the answer to these questions is no, while in the case of Nazi Germany, it's yes.

[Steiner14]

Though ideologically the Soviets vs Germans was a 'war of annihilation' I think thats just really rhetoric.

Wrong. Germany was destroyed. Totally. What today is called "Germany" has nothing to do with Germany. It is the FRG and has nothing to do with german culture, the german people, german history. It is an artificial re-educated consumerism Coca Cola culture.

Finis Germania 1945.

But everything else you write is wrong, too:

First, the biggest genocide in history was committed after the Germans laid down their weapons with around 11 million victims. In "peacetimes", committed by the united globalists, the bringers of peace to the world.

And when this "liberation" was taking place, strangely also the biggest wave of suicides EVER happened with over 200.000 dead. Probably because of joy.

Then the biggest cultural destruction and censorship ever began. Never before in history that many millions of books were burnt, cultural art destroyed or stolen, the whole educational system of a nation destroyed, every factory, that was not destroyed by bombs, plundered.

Also the biggest economic looting in history was committed, also in the biggest industrial scale with over 50.000 stolen german patents.

But what I find most fascinating, is, if someone really can believe in Anti-Nazi propaganda, when he looks at European cities like Paris or London today.

Isn't it interesting, that those, who proclaim Hitler was an enemy of the Russian or other people, are the ones who are commiting a genocide against the Russians with mass immigration?!

It's the same in the EU: The ones who claim to be "Pro-Europeans", are the ones who demand anti-european mass-immigration!

Orwellian Speak, nothing else.

Can anyone with his right mind really believe, that if Hitler would have won the war, London, Paris, Moscow or any other EUROPEAN city would look like this today?

Finis Europae 1945.

And if someone takes a look at the transformation of the USA, he maybe will also recognize, how correct Patton was, when he recognzied - although way too late - what really had happened.

Of course had the Nazi's prevailed, I'm sure you would have seen something close to annihilation for most of the Russian population.

Therefore at the end more than 10% of the Wehrmacht already were Russians and other nations from the Soviet paradise? Joining the side, that probably was not going to win anymore!

And who knows, maybe the Ukrainian HOLODOMOR was a bolshevik gift, too!

Like the 66 million victims of Jewish Bolshevism that do not count.

Still - the Soviets won and there was no large scale annihilation of the Germans.

Yupp, the 11 Million Germans don't count, like the 66 million victims of Jewish Bolshevism in the globalist's matrix...

Just because one war has a bunch more casualties than another doesn't mean necessarily the combat was any less intense.

You obviously never have talked to a veteran who fought in the east and west, if you talk such BS. How brave the Russian soldier was and what alone the Russian Winter means for men, animals and machines, you obviously have not the slightest imagination.

Show me a single german veteran who was a Ostfrontkämpfer and later fought in the West, who supports your chauvinistic Hollywood-invented imagination! And you probably will also find not a single Russian one, too.

I have talked to countless german veterans and there was not a single one who was impressed by the Western Alliies - quite the contrary - but each and everyone was full of respect about the bravery (and stubbornness) of the Russian soldier - despite their often non-legal war practices (although it was not formally non-legal for them, since the Soviet Union had not signed the Geneve convention, but vice versa, also Germany was not bound to it in the fight against the Red Army).

The huge dimensions, the wheather and the (non existant) legal framework was one of the reasons, why the war in the east was taking place in another dimension and why it is so incredibly stupid to compare it with the conventional war in the west.

Another reason was the Soviet politics of scorched earth (that already had broke Napoleon's Army the neck). What this meant for the own people in villages during the Russian Winter (before all their seed, corn and cattle had been confiscated), is hard to imagine and maybe gives the uninformed a taste what it meant to fight in the East, if the Bolsheviks were treating their own people that way...

[massive1974]

Can anyone with his right mind really believe, that if Hitler would have won the war, London, Paris, Moscow or any other EUROPEAN city would look like this today?

.

If Hitler won the war there would be no freaking London, Paris, Moscow. You'd be conversing with your inbred blonde blue-eyed Arian buddies on the internet, not us.

And what the **** exactly do you mean by "Jewish Bolshevism"?????? Who is moderating this forum anyway?????????

[Sequoia]

Who is moderating this forum anyway?????????

Patience, they'll be around. They're busy making games.

[Steiner14]

If Hitler won the war there would be no freaking London, Paris, Moscow. You'd be conversing with your inbred blonde blue-eyed Arian buddies on the internet, not us.

Blonde blue-eyed people are inbred? Do I hear racism?

And what the **** exactly do you mean by "Jewish Bolshevism"?????? Who is moderating this forum anyway?????????

Official communist postcard "Leaders of the Proletarian Revolution".

As historically educated I guess you know them?

And would you say, that a Politburo with around 90% jews is jewish?

Try to read good books, for example Alexander Solshenizyn, and consume less brainwashing-media then you would understand better, what is going on in the world. Instead of calling for censorship, and being an enemy of free speech, as soon as it is NOT against "blonde blue-eyed" people and the destruction of their people, you could discuss the facts and exchange arguments! :mad:

[massive1974]

Blonde blue-eyed people are inbred? Do I hear racism?

Official communist postcard "Leaders of the Proletarian Revolution".

As historically educated I guess you know them?

And would you say, that a Politburo with around 90% jews is jewish?

Try to read good books, for example Alexander Solshenizyn, and consume less brainwashing-media then you would understand better, what is going on in the world. Instead of calling for censorship, and being an enemy of free speech, as soon as it is NOT against "blonde blue-eyed" people, you could discuss the facts!

Nothing to discuss at this stage unfortunately. "Jewish Bolshevism" did it for me. That in itself speaks volumes. What you call facts and what I call facts are light-years apart.

[Steiner14]

Interesting that single words are triggering such a reaction in you. Do you know that this is similar to a Pawlowian Dog and not the behavour of a free, open minded man that demands to talk about everything freely?

[massive1974]

Interesting that single words are triggering such a reaction in you. Do you know that this is similar to a Pawlowian Dog and not the behavour of a free, open minded man that demands to talk about everything freely?

Well, it's more like trying to discuss higher mathematics with someone who suddenly says: 2+2=555.

[Steiner14]

Let me guess: It's you who is the one talking higher mathematics and I'm the one claiming 2+2=555, right?

But so far I have not seen a single argument from your side, what in my argumentation was not correct.

Can you explain to me, how could you, the higher mathematician know that my calculation was wrong, if you refuse to check it? Andif it was wrong, shouldn't it be easy to show, what is wrong?

Where is the "logic" behind all this absurdity in your thinking, that if you avoid free speech, you would INCREASE your KNOWLEDGE? You are acting like priests, that try to defend secrets of a religion, but you are not acting like rationale free man that DEMAND their right of free speech about everything, have free thoughts like the wind and are proud of to be freethinkers. You are proud to act like Pawlowian Dogs and think this was rationale behaviour.

Congratulations to those, that achieved this!

[sburke]

IBTL!!! And the banning! Woohoo!!

[John Kettler]

JasonC,

I was going to edit this into the earlier post with the Ju-87G footage, but got called away. I shall therefore present it here. It's pretty clean slow motion footage of several attacks on Russian armor by Rudel or one of his guys.

Regards,

John Kettler

[Sublime]

Steiner - where do you get 66 million victims from? Show me one realistic, factual source. And though I hesitate to say all the German civilians deserved death, the military men knew what they were in for. The Germans started the whole mess. You initiated the Holocaust. You were rounding up British soldiers and shooting them as early as France in 1940. You firebombed Rotterdam and London, before your cities were bombed in a similar manner. I love how you tell me all about the US, when I doubt you've ever even been here. And I can show you several Werhmacht memoirs that express quite a bit of admiration for the Western soldier.

You're a real moron - you always have been.

[Steiner14]

Steiner - where do you get 66 million victims from?

e.g. Schwarzbuch des Kommunismus (Black book of Communism)

And though I hesitate to say all the German civilians deserved death,

You are so generous.

the military men knew what they were in for.

Then this can only mean that today, with internet, also every US-soldier knew, that Colin Powell and the US-government was lying about WMDs in Iraq?

But such claims are even more ridiculous if you look at the cicumstances: all german soldiers should have known what not a single secret service of the Alliies knew about!!!

That's like saying: every US soldier knew, that Iraq had WMDs, while no secret service new about them.

Come one, not even you would believe that.

The Germans started the whole mess.

How?

You initiated the Holocaust.

Sure!

Btw, do you know when this word appeared BIG for the first time?

You were rounding up British soldiers and shooting them as early as France in 1940.

Being more specific would be necessary. I don't know what you mean.

You firebombed Rotterdam

Sure... But not only this, the "Hunns" also ate children and were indoctrinated, while in the western world people are free from propaganda and know the facts!

Now, what are the facts?

First it is important to notice, that Rotterdam was a defended frontier city (compare that to the criminal strategic bombing of cities only to hit civilians in the hope to weaken morale).

A frontier city. On May 14th 1940 the Wehrmacht was negotiating the handing over of the city, otherwise it would be bombed at 3 pm. The negotiations were fobbed and as late at around 2 pm the negotiations were interrupted and the ceasefire was extended to 6 pm.

In the meanwhile Kampfgeschwader 54, already on it's way, could not be reached anymore over radio, because they had already taken the radio pulline-antennas in. The flares that were shot were not seen from the first wave and only the second wave saw them and cancelled the attack. Therefore the first wave with 57 of the 100 bombers, in the believe the attack order would still be valid, dropped their bombs (97 tons).

How such a tragic accident can be used as justification of using phosphorous firebombs and bombs with timers and second and third waves, timed that way, to hit a maximum amount of rescue teams of an undefended city, filled with fugitives, is beyond my understanding.

and London, before your cities were bombed in a similar manner.

I suggest you check, when the first cities in Germany were bombed by the RAF. And what kind of cities were that. And what was the target in these cities.

Then check when was London bombed for the first time. And what the targets in London were.

[Battlefront.com]

Steiner... I've put up with this racist, neo-Nazi nonsense for too many years. You have had warning after warning after warning. No more, you're out of here. For good. You have violated this Forum's rules far too many times for any more chances.

We are just going to have to remain ignorant of the "truth" as you see it.

Few people here will be surprised by this action itself, but quite surprised it took so long.

Locking this up because it serves no purpose.

Steve