Magnum50 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 What I thought would happen was that I put a lone AT team in a nice ambush location in a PBEM game, sure enough the enemy sent a tank there, while hiding I faced towards the enemy and it drove by nearly 50 meters but my AT team never did anything, now i have it up and running to catch up to the tank and shot it in the rear... Aren't they suppose to engage when in range, even while hiding...or am I wrong on something? thx 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
agusto Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Did they see the tank? IME hiding unit often have troubles seeing tanks until they almost litterally run over them. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 In most situations, when you are setting up an ambush, as long as there is good cover in your setup area it's better to just give units a Cover Arc and not hide them. The "Hide" order in CM seems to represent a "go fully prone and try to remain unspotted at all costs" SOP, so units on Hide are very well concealed, but also have very poor spotting ability. Think of soldiers fully prone, becoming intimately familiar with the dirt under their noses. Every once in a while, a member of the team will look up briefly, but this only provides the barest minimum of situational awareness. In comparison, units without a Hide order maintain good situational awareness; as long as they have good cover/concealment and are not shooting or moving, they're still pretty hard to spot (especially small units like infantry AT teams). So a Hide order is usually unnecessary to a good ambush setup. Personally, I mostly use the Hide order to tell infantry units to go prone and stay prone when I think there's about to be incoming artillery/mortar fire -- Hiding will usually considerably reduce casualties from this type of incoming fire. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magnum50 Posted March 9, 2013 Author Share Posted March 9, 2013 copy...thx. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner14 Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 This is not my impression. I had a infantry gun hidden in woods and foxholes and it was spotted from a moving infantry (not even hunting) from 200 m. But it happened in CMFI v2.0. Dunno how big the difference in v2.x1 would be 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 The "Hide" order in CM seems to represent a "go fully prone and try to remain unspotted at all costs" SOP, so units on Hide are very well concealed, but also have very poor spotting ability. Yes, but a hiding Bazooka team ought to hear an approaching panzer, right? And they're peeking' anyway. I favor my idea™ of giving a Hiding unit a functioning CA at the expense of slightly reduced concealment. And it poses no insurmountable programming challenges. I think. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lt Belenko Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I just had a zook team hide in the woods from start of game tank comes into view at 90 meters. When the tank advanced a little more the range would be less that 60 with a nice flank shot. Some how the Pz-IV sees them fires main and both dead. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 Yeah... this lack of suitable "Ambush" capability like we had in CM1 has been throughly discussed every few months. The problem is that when not hiding the "ambushing" troops are usually easily seen by moving tanks (which seem to have way more spotting capability than in RL), and advancing inf. And as said above, when hiding, your inf will have very little situational awareness and usually will be run or walked over and shot in the backs by advancing enemy. Yes, you would have thought ambushing inf would hear a tank and feel the vibrations of the ground. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
womble Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I think often the problem with "ambushing" teams getting spotted stems from players expecting too much of the terrain. It's vital to remember that terrain is 1:1. medium grass under some trees is emphatically not "wooded" terrain as it is in most games. You need some brush or long grass to hide prone truppen, and more concealment yet to hide kneeling ones. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 9, 2013 Share Posted March 9, 2013 I think often the problem with "ambushing" teams getting spotted stems from players expecting too much of the terrain. It's vital to remember that terrain is 1:1. medium grass under some trees is emphatically not "wooded" terrain as it is in most games. You need some brush or long grass to hide prone truppen, and more concealment yet to hide kneeling ones. +1 on that. Concealment vs cover vs player perception based on prior games (especially CMx1) seems to be a big factor here. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I'm looking forward to the return of the Ambush command 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Yes, but a hiding Bazooka team ought to hear an approaching panzer, right? And they're peeking' anyway. I favor my idea™ of giving a Hiding unit a functioning CA at the expense of slightly reduced concealment. And it poses no insurmountable programming challenges. I think. I fully believe the soldiers are totally deaf in CM...my bug bear. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Soldiers in CM are not deaf. Sound contacts are proof of that. Dismounted infantry can hear vehicles moving from more than 100m away. Tanks will rotate themselves towards them if it is a "tank" contact but that is the limit of TacAI reaction to sound that I have seen. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I think his point was that if hiding behind a wall you'd hear and feel a tank on the other side and would pop up and fire. Right now, units hiding do almost nothing. And if your inf are behind a wall and not hiding, the chances that a tank racing past will see em and shoot first. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanzfeld Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Tanks see hiding infantry wayyyyyyyyyyy too easy in this game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 There should be some SOP or new type of covered arc that would order units to react to sound contacts as if they were visual contacts, i.e. unhide if the contact is within the covered arc. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vanir Ausf B Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Tanks will rotate themselves towards them if it is a "tank" contact I take that back. They don't. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wodin Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I think his point was that if hiding behind a wall you'd hear and feel a tank on the other side and would pop up and fire. Right now, units hiding do almost nothing. And if your inf are behind a wall and not hiding, the chances that a tank racing past will see em and shoot first. Correct..also when the man next to them gets shot and they just carry on..neither seeing or hearing the gun shot. Very obvious in forest fighting. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I'm looking forward to the return of the Ambush command +1 all the way brothers! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner14 Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Please not another command. If there is a cover arc and a hide command, IMO this IS ambush and should work as ambush. A hide command without a cover arc means all heads down and only minimal spotting - very similar like it is now. And a hide command with a cover arc of a unit that has not moved, also means ambush, but should give the unit a huge camouflage bonus, if it is in woods or bushes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 HIDE: Belly to ground. Some peeking. Maximum concealment. HIDE w/ CA: Belly to ground. More peeking. High concealment. UPSIDE: No additional commands. Effective ambushing. DOWNSIDE: Fly in the ointment is getting the AI to use it efficiently. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 The only issue I've had lately ambushing armor was somewhat self inflicted. I put a target Armor CA on a unit. They did exactly as I'd asked and fired a PF at an approaching scout car. The round exploded beneath the vehicle immobilizing it and causing the passengers to bail...this is where I screwed up. I knew the vehicle was coming and I knew it had passengers...what I should have done was changed to a standard CA. The result was the passengers bailed and my guys just sat their and watched em... Fortunately the enemy infantry were so freaked out from the PF I was able to remove the CA on the next turn while they were still pinned at which point my two landser went to town. Hopefully I will remember that lesson. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Childress Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 The game classifies a Scout Car as 'armor'? That's news... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hister Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 Please not another command. If there is a cover arc and a hide command, IMO this IS ambush and should work as ambush. A hide command without a cover arc means all heads down and only minimal spotting - very similar like it is now. And a hide command with a cover arc of a unit that has not moved, also means ambush, but should give the unit a huge camouflage bonus, if it is in woods or bushes. Didn't know it works like that! Seriously? My my, looks like it's time for my gaming knowledge upgrade... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DasMorbo Posted March 10, 2013 Share Posted March 10, 2013 I agree on womble. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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