CM: Shock Force 2 Wish List

[Apocal]

I'd want a far more accurate vehicle damage modelling system, at present a lowly RPG-7 can regularly damage the optics, tracks, IR and targeting system of a Challenger II.

What is wrong with this?

[Tactical Wargamer]

Multilayer wish list

1) gaming with teams/commands 2 vs. AI, 2 vs. 2 etc

2) Auto pause with a key NO requesting it from your opponent(s)

3) Larger maps.....

[Vark]

What is wrong with this?

I work with an ex-Chally II commander, there's a lot wrong with it. The standard RPG-7 has a small HEAT round which would have to normally score a direct impact on any of the sub-systems listed to damage them, so how come tracks, targeting and IR systems are all repeatedly degraded with one hit?

[bloodworth646]

Another subject i find neccessery to discuss, with the intention to eventually influece its implitaion in the next CMSF, is the longevity of the firefights.

From my experince, In a normal firefight in CMSF, rather than having two opposing sides exchangeing fire, the side that gets the first shots almost immediately suppress the opposing side, mostly scoring a nice chunk of kills and sometimes even eliminating the threat. The problem is that it makes manoeuvre based comabt obsolete since, well... there is no need to manoeuvre:)

Look at this video:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=EcapgRx1sxI

(note that It's possibe to create this formation by spliting your squad)

You see one element (in this case a fireteam) exchanging fire with an enemy while another element manoeuvres to the flank in order to actually eliminate the enemy!

In CMSF this kind of encouners are over very qucikly: if the opfor gets the first shots - your forword fireteam would be quickly suppressed while the flanking fireteam loses the purpose of the flanking manoeuvre since there is no more effective base of fire to support them!

But if Vice versa - your guys get the first shots there is no need for flanking - the enemy is usually so damn suppressed that you can order the the other fireteam to simply walk into the enemy's position and destroy them.

IMHO, the next CMSF should opt for longer firefights by rendering higher detailed and cover rich envoirments which improve the survivibilty of the troops or making small arms fire less effective - the point is to have firefights which long enough to grant even more tacticaly challanging and realistic game!

[JMFC]

Bloodworth, I think you have to keep in mind scale and range. Considering those, CMSF does a pretty good job in realism.

The video you referenced is from VBS2 (sigh) showing Battle Drill 1A (Squad Attack). It's a single squad against a two man OP. With a 3:1 ratio, that's something a squad can easily handle. If you can see the enemy, and he is in range, you can kill him. Given the right conditions, a good fire team leader on point can end the engagement in seconds. Take is a step up to Platoon Attack (BD1), and it will take a little bit longer when it's one platoon against one squad.

Reference US Army doctrine, once the PL decides to attack, one of his first actions is to bring up his M240s (his most casualty producing weapon). These MGs will set up in the SBF. Once the guns start going, if an ENY is hit, it's probably from an MG. Soldiers' accuracy will be better from the prone in a SBF than bounding in 3-5sec rushes. When the assault element actually throws grenades and assaults, there should be very few ENY still in the fight. Now add Bradleys and tanks in, if they make first contact, they will inflict most of your casualties.

Concerning range, squad maneuver is less than 300m, and platoon maneuver is less than 500. Don't think weapon ranges, think the ability of a platoon leader to control his element in an ambiguous situation over dense terrain. Platoons train to maneuver, but really maneuver in a near peer environment is done at the company level. A mechanized infantry platoon in a SBF or a tank platoon in an ABF will inflict a lot of casualties on an enemy that sticks around.

Try to conduct Company Attack in the game on a platoon battle position. You'll do fire and maneuver then. Check out some current books from Iraq and Afghanistan. Most platoon level engagements last less than 10 minutes once the shooting actually starts.

Fighting in the woods of Eastern Europe for CMSF2 might allow for more small unit maneuver. Regardless of the terrain, the ENY isn't going to just hunker down and let you suppress him. He's going to shoot back and suppress you, or he'll just run back to another position.

Doctrine is the science. How you apply doctrine to a unique situation is the art.

[Buzz]

Plenty of good suggestions since I was last here. Thanks.

I did notice the CMBN "New features/feature ideas for CM for the next few years thread" has some great suggestions as well.

I will try and cull the CMSF-2 & CMBN knowledge nuggets and list items we "demand" for CMSF-2.

[bloodworth646]

Thanks for the explanation JMFC!

[Jock Tamson]

Hmm. Well, if we ever had time to do this, I think we'd love to, but in terms of priorities this is probably not right at the top of the list.

Agreed. It would require a similarly major amount of time to do, though.

AI is that rarest of development projects - patently useful AND fun to work on / design - but it also takes an enormous amount of time to get it right. CM is a pretty complex game. Even a basic dynamic AI for it would require a lot of work and time to make it good enough to be worth the effort of doing it in the first place. Kind of a Catch-22.

That doesn't mean it won't happen, just that there are things that'll be a higher priority because they're more economical time-wise and still provide a lot of value. We've only got two programmers, and frankly we're busy as heck as it is.

As artillery selections, you mean?

I wonder if there is something to be learned from the world of Arma here? Vanilla Arma 2 (and 3) offers little in the way of AI without modding. With mods - which either change or add to the game's core AI FSMs, it becomes an entirely different experience, and has arguably kept it alive for single players particularly, and devolved quite a burden away from the devs. A typical set of mods that I play with:

1. A strategic mod, which scans the map for points of interest and issues orders to AI squads, with reference to objectives that are set by the mission maker.

2. A group management mod, which allows the user to define the framework governing the ways in which squads will work together once in contact

3. A tactical mod, which influences the behaviour of individual units when in combat - for example the response to danger, suppression, seeking cover etc.

[CrackSabbath]

"Shock Force 2" is not the right title for the new game. Following the logic of our Families Shock Force = arid setting in Syria, so we need something new to call this particular flavor of temperate modern warfare. Black Sea is the development name. No idea what the actual name will be, but it's good enough for now

Note that we do intend to redo the original Shock Force content. It's going to be a huge undertaking because of all the changes that have taken place since the original engine was made. Same reason there's been no Upgrade offer for it. We would if we could, but the amount of work that needs to go into that is almost as if we're doing it from scratch. That game will be called Shock Force 2 and it will follow Black Sea.

Steve

In case you didn't see this over on the CMBN forum.

[vincere]

In case you didn't see this over on the CMBN forum.

That's great news!! Thanks for posting here.

[SelfLoadingRifle]

The video you referenced is from VBS2 (sigh) showing Battle Drill 1A (Squad Attack). It's a single squad against a two man OP. With a 3:1 ratio, that's something a squad can easily handle. QUOTE]

The (in Brit parlance) section attack - as described here - was something that was taught, just to teach the basics of fire and manoeuvre. It has probably never happened in real life, or if so, extremely rarely. If a couple of guys open up on a section they will never be obliging enough to hang around long enough for the good guys to win the firefight and then go left or right flanking, or pepper-pot through their position!

SLR

[Buzz]

Thanks CrackSabbath,

... Shock Force 2 will follow Black Sea... Arnhem, Bagration, and Black Sea (yeah, that's a Modern bone) are all very far along their respective development cycles...... All tasty BF bones from Steve. Wonder if the NSA has any more details

[Erwin]

Xnt news re SF2... (And "Black Sea" as well, natch.)

[Buzz]

I agree Erwin. Xnt news re: SF2 & "Black Sea".

Plenty of good suggestions here and in the CMBN "New features/feature ideas for CM for the next few years thread".

I have been too busy to carefully review and list the knowledge nuggets. I am sure BF has it all under control but having a concise "Wish List" would a nice reference. Might take me till the Fall to get that done but I will try be fore the "Black Sea" parts

[Sequoia]

So will or should CM:SF II be a re-do of the 2008 storyline or a present day NATO intervention into civil war torn Syria?

[stikkypixie]

So will or should CM:SF II be a re-do of the 2008 storyline or a present day NATO intervention into civil war torn Syria?

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showpost.php?p=1456347&postcount=462

That should settle the matter.

[Sequoia]

I don't read where that settles anything.

[Buzz]

So will or should CM:SF II be a re-do of the 2008 storyline or a present day NATO intervention into civil war torn Syria?

"Note that we do intend to redo the original Shock Force content. It's going to be a huge undertaking because of all the changes that have taken place since the original engine was made. Same reason there's been no Upgrade offer for it. We would if we could, but the amount of work that needs to go into that is almost as if we're doing it from scratch. That game will be called Shock Force 2 and it will follow Black Sea."

Steve

It seems a 2008 storyline is the plan. I suspect support for a present day NATO intervention into Syria would not be too difficult to support from there.

[stikkypixie]

I don't read where that settles anything.

"Shock Force 2" is not the right title for the new game. Following the logic of our Families Shock Force = arid setting in Syria, so we need something new to call this particular flavor of temperate modern warfare. Black Sea is the development name. No idea what the actual name will be, but it's good enough for now

Note that we do intend to redo the original Shock Force content. It's going to be a huge undertaking because of all the changes that have taken place since the original engine was made. Same reason there's been no Upgrade offer for it. We would if we could, but the amount of work that needs to go into that is almost as if we're doing it from scratch. That game will be called Shock Force 2 and it will follow Black Sea.

Steve

Unless they plan to make a whole new backstory, "the original Shock Force content" to me implies that the 2008 storyline will be kept.

[Sequoia]

I agree it implies it. I just don't think it's settled yet. I doubt they have even begun developing it yet and a whole lot can change before that happens.

[Erwin]

Agreed.

However, a "storyline" isn't hard to change. The terrain doesn't have to change (other than a better damage model perhaps). It's just the equipment (and possibly AI) that needs to be updated for a particular era. How much has changed since 2008?

[Alan8325]

That's a good point. I wonder which would be more interesting between a CMSF2 based on Syria in 2007 or so vs a CMSF2 based on a Syria as it is projected to become in a couple years or so.

The 2007 Syria (as in CMSF1) would be more cohesive and a bigger challenge to the U.S. military from a conventional standpoint, but a divided (as it is projected to be) Syria with multiple competing factions would be a more interesting game from a political and irregular perspective. I would imagine that a U.S. intervention in a near-future Syria would consist mostly of special forces working with religiously moderate militants on the ground, backed by air power. With further tweaking and added detail of infantry combat, especially MOUT, I could see unconventional combat-based CM games becoming much more interesting.

A total re-do of CMSF1 with a current CM engine portraying a conventional invasion of Syria in 2007 would be welcome too, but I wonder if the modern conventional vs modern conventional desire will be quenched by "CM Black Sea" and CMSF2 should begin to delve into unconventional and special forces type missions.

[Erwin]

The other issue that is the "elephant in the room" is with any modern game is that airpower spoils all the "fun". A modern game has to find excuses why the US doesn't dominate the skies and destroy all the enemy with precision strikes etc.

[Alan8325]

The other issue that is the "elephant in the room" is with any modern game is that airpower spoils all the "fun". A modern game has to find excuses why the US doesn't dominate the skies and destroy all the enemy with precision strikes etc.

I would argue that in a conflict vs Russia like in CM Black Sea the Russians would have airpower as well, with the security of their Motherland airbases backed by nuclear weapons. The U.S. could shoot down airplanes over Ukraine all day but the Russians can keep sending them because deep strikes against Russian airpower in Russian territory would be grounds for taking the conflict nuclear.

In a conflict vs a non-nuclear opponent or insurgency on the other hand, one would just have to assume that there are steep penalties for inflicting collateral damage with airstrikes.

[Buzz]

A redo the original Shock Force content. …that will be called Shock Force 2 and will follow Black Sea.. seems like a 2008 like storyline. Implied yes. Settled, well maybe Steve knows

Even if it was the exact same 2008 storyline without change (I doubt this) look at the theatre mods that were made for CMSF-1.

Now wondering about Black Sea and specific airpower I think Alan8325 makes some good points. Drones should be present and correct.

Moon 6/22/12…."we've chosen to simulate a full spectrum conventional conflict between NATO and Russia in the Ukraine. This gives players a rich tactical environment to explore with the most advanced militaries the world has ever seen. " = Black Sea.

Yeah, The CMx2 Modern(s) are going to be a pleasure to play.