Predictions for 2013

[Broadsword56]

If I understand BFC's plans correctly, the first family is intended to run from mid-'44 to mid-'45. Thus it should include all seasons. But I expect that it will require not only the base game, but all its modules in order to do so.

You can't really create winter terrain from a summer only base game or module. You could mod terrain so that it looks like winter, but you can't change the underlying characteristics of that terrain. I.e., you may be able to make it look like snow, but you wouldn't be able to ski on it. Rivers wouldn't freeze over, etc.

Michael

Well, a winter look is at least worthwhile to have the season fit the battles. Just enough to have the bare trees, hedges, frozen weeds and bushes, and the snowy terrain tiles like snowy mud, snowy dirt road, etc.

I suppose a terrain tile like "Sand" could be the one modded to make solid snow, because it would have at least some of the softer characteristics of snow. No skiing is necessary, and I don't think it matters to have actual falling snow either. Rain would give some of the same effects. The desert sand tile that LonLeftFlank made and that I've used on my Tunisia maps even has little wind ripples in it, and all it would need is to be much whiter instead of sandy colored.

As for frozen water -- again I think there might be a possible workaround -- maybe "shallow ford" or something could be modded to look more still and icy. Then it could be crossed by troops and one wouldn't need to use water at all on the map (I tend not to use it anyway because of the elevation constraints that go with it).

Thoughts?

[GSX]

I think the most sober assessments at the time in question (late Cold War era) were not sure if NATO would be able to stand up in a purely conventional setting. In fact, I think the assumption was that they would likely go nuclear the first day. At least that's what they wanted the Soviets to think.

Michael

I agree if it was the case but CMSF2 will be set in modern+ Ukraine. I'm not saying any conflict there would be as easy as Iraq but I really don't see how in reality it would either happen or that in a non nuclear endgame, how a current Russian force could hold its own against NATO air power.

I don't see a situation that would warrant a conflict there or even a situation where any of the main powers would get into a hot war directly between each other.

You never know though but I suppose that's what games are for. I do look forward to the discussions about weapon and vehicle modelling and how the data was compiled. Lots to look forward too though.....

[Michael Emrys]

Well, a winter look is at least worthwhile to have the season fit the battles. Just enough to have the bare trees, hedges, frozen weeds and bushes...

But you see, the thing is that those trees might look bare to you the player, but the game still sees them as fully foliaged. Meaning that they are going to effect such things as spotting, LOS, and so forth just the way they would in summer.

Do you get what I'm saying here? If you are serious about modeling combat in a winter environment, just making cosmetic changes isn't going to be enough. There are all sorts of ways that winter weather is going to effect gameplay. Lubricants congeal in extreme cold. Men are weighted down by heavy and bulky clothing, just to name a couple of effects.

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

We definitely need to get lubricant viscosity nailed down.

[Broadsword56]

I get it. Not an optimal situation, but not a show-stopper for me.

If I wanted to fight a December 1942 East Front battle in forested terrain, that would be a serious obstacle. So I'd avoid using CM to resolve boardgame battles in heavily wooded/vegetated areas. In other places -- more open areas or steppe-like settings -- I don't think the discrepancy between the model and visible bare trees/bushes would make that much difference. At least not any more difference than the use of the bush model modded into a cactus or the poplar tree modded into a palm makes much difference in Tunisia maps. True, an HE shell would impact on that palm tree as if it were a poplar tree. So I'd just consider it an airburst and let it go at that. It just takes some imagination and a willingness to explore what *can* be done rather than be defeated by assumptions about what can't be done.

[mjkerner]

Cosmetic only:

[Broadsword56]

Damn, mj, that looks *really* good! That's what I'm talkin' about.

Did you just make that? How does it play?

I started a new thread about winter mods for the eventual Eastern Front Cm family over in the CMBN mods forum, so that the terrain discussion doesn't hijack this thread.

[sburke]

damn that looks good. And I was doing pretty good about waiting for the bulge game, you just ruined my personal calm. LOL

[mjkerner]

Glad you like it. I started with a mod I got off of CMMODS, but made many more "snowed-on" terrain tiles, flavor objects and added some winter trees (borrowed from CMSF, CMA, and one (or two?) from sdp's Italy mod). I did this about 3 months ago, and just started changing the German uniform names to comport with v2.0 names.

Mud tiles work for heavy snow movement.

The village I also borrowed from someone's map, then extended it alol, made the village larger, and destroyed it more. I am presently adding tons and tons and tons of rubble, so it will look really damaged. The idea was to do a US attack scenario in Novemmber '44somewhere along the Siegfried Line, and a German attack scenario in December '44, somewhere in Belgium. Maybe someday I'll finish all this.

I still owe you that email about MG and future plans. Tomorrow over the lunch hour.

[agusto]

Cosmetic only:

This.Is.Awesome.

[mjkerner]

Thanks augusto. Maybe I will finish this afterall if enough are interested. Notice the line in the distance where the snow stops. I have to "snow" the mini terrain tiles (I assume that's what needs to be done...if not, someone tell me before I waste the time), because the draw distance too noticable. And I have to re-figure out how to use alpha channels 'cause I added snow to the bocage, but until I make them alphas they look plenty wierd.

[Broadsword56]

Yes, please do finish it!

Steve confirmed in a post that the initial release of CM East Front will be in 2.0 (since 3.0 won't be ready in time for the start of this new family series), so it would seem that any work done on winter terrain/veg modding now for CMBN 2.0 should also be usable on the Ostfront game when we get it. Ditto for that nifty new autumn terrain mod that Mord just announced.

At least you wouldn't have to worry about snowy bocage for East Front maps.

I guess we'll need some new snowy "steppe" horizons too, eventually.

[Mord]

That wasn't me it was Nik Mond.

MJ, check SDP's Mod he might have the mini terrain and off map textures already done.

Mord.

[mjkerner]

Mord, he didn't do winter ground, just trees and doodads, etc. It actually goes pretty quick. I just won't be able to finish the mini ground until the weekend.

[MikeyD]

CMBN will never see winter terrain/weather since the title is scheduled to end Sept 30 1944. But there's the seperate Bulge title which is pretty much a continuation of CMBN starting the next day, Oct 1 and running through war's end (May 8 VE Day). Plus the mainland Italy modules and God-knows-what timerame the modern war title may be set in. So snow is indeed forecast.

[Duckman]

I'd love to see Bagration in 2013, but will settle for Bulge. :-)

[GSX]

I'd love to see Bagration in 2013, but will settle for Bulge. :-)

I think you will be pleased as the way ahead thread states that before June this year we will see 3 base games for sale, CMSF 2, EF and I imagine the Bulge game?

[GSX]

CMBN will never see winter terrain/weather since the title is scheduled to end Sept 30 1944. But there's the seperate Bulge title which is pretty much a continuation of CMBN starting the next day, Oct 1 and running through war's end (May 8 VE Day). Plus the mainland Italy modules and God-knows-what timerame the modern war title may be set in. So snow is indeed forecast.

Sounds good but what will it bring over CMBN? A few vehicles? I imagine it will follow the same pattern with US vs Germans in main game and then the Brits. What other modules will be there possibly be?

Apart from a Pershing and some snow, what can the Bulge module bring that the talented scenario designers can't do with CMBN? Or are the talented scenario designers tied to producing stuff for the current modules? I'm not sure this is true as my favourite designer George Mc has produced a most excellent brace of EF scenarios set in the CMBN universe.

I might just skip the Bulge game and look forward to the Ostfont game.

[Vanir Ausf B]

I think you will be pleased as the way ahead thread states that before June this year we will see 3 base games for sale, CMSF 2, EF and I imagine the Bulge game?

No. Bagration and Shock Force 2 are planned for 2013 (not but not necessarily before June). There has been no time frame announced for the Bulge game AFAIK.

[Steiner14]

I would prefer quality over quantity. Instead of pushing out content after content which eats up resources, too, i would prefer to see the engine being improved faster. What is that much content good for, if we don't have ATGs with adequate cover or quick redraw possibilities? If bunkers on steep slopes are eaten by the terrain after setup? If on map guns are shooting into the crest of hills instead of indirect fire? If trenches do not offer adequate protection against mortar fire? If cover arcs hurt the eyes?

IMO currently the content is developed too fast while the game development is lacking progress.

Since the update scheme makes it necessary that every update is replicated over other versions, i think the updates of the engine should be more significant.

Putting out too much content IMO also leads to a more shallow community becoming more and more focused on what is new and what will come next, instead of exploring what is there and what is available.

I can imagine this also has a negative effect on scenario designers: it makes a difference in motivation if hundreds of players are downloading a scenario, playing it and discussing it, or if twenty or thirty players give it a quick look but then already the next content is released and the focus shifts away.

Big companies release one family title every year and this usually is by far enough to keep the player busy. Here with one engine release we have two, and soon three new games (CMFI, CMBN, CMEF). This makes on average a new game every quarter.

With the modules this average timespan for new content is reduced even more.

IMO it would be better to lenghten the release durations but to invest more time into the next game version, a more rapid engine improvement but less new content releases.

[GSX]

No. Bagration and Shock Force 2 are planned for 2013 (not but not necessarily before June). There has been no time frame announced for the Bulge game AFAIK.

Damn I was going on Moons announcement here

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=104854

In June 2012 he said we would see those three games within the next year which I took to mean 12 months.

Any ideas when the EF Game will be out as that's the only one I want together with the MG module.

[Michael Emrys]

In June 2012 he said we would see those three games within the next year which I took to mean 12 months.

BFC estimates of time—when you can even get one from them—tend of necessity to be pretty elastic. I'm sure they have somewhere in the office a calendar marked with all the dates when they would like different projects to be completed. But rest assured the unexpected always happens, projects get delayed, priorities get shifted around, and so on. That's why the usual answer has always been, "When it's ready!" Although it seems to me that their production lines are running more smoothly these days allowing them to come closer to actually predicting somewhat semi-firm commitments to rather vague stretches of time when something might (or might not) pop out at the end. As JasonC often says, "Take that for what it's worth."

Michael

[Vanir Ausf B]

Damn I was going on Moons announcement here

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=104854

In June 2012 he said we would see those three games within the next year which I took to mean 12 months.

Any ideas when the EF Game will be out as that's the only one I want together with the MG module.

I was going by Moon's announcement also . I suppose you could interpret his wording to mean by June of this year. But that would mean they plan to release the East Front game, Shock Force 2 and the Market Garden module all in the next 6 months. I don't see that happening. But I don't know anything more about it than what you have read.

[Doug Williams]

You make many good points, Steiner14.

I would prefer quality over quantity. Instead of pushing out content after content which eats up resources, too, i would prefer to see the engine being improved faster. What is that much content good for, if we don't have ATGs with adequate cover or quick redraw possibilities? If bunkers on steep slopes are eaten by the terrain after setup? If on map guns are shooting into the crest of hills instead of indirect fire? If trenches do not offer adequate protection against mortar fire? If cover arcs hurt the eyes?

IMO currently the content is developed too fast while the game development is lacking progress.

Since the update scheme makes it necessary that every update is replicated over other versions, i think the updates of the engine should be more significant.

Putting out too much content IMO also leads to a more shallow community becoming more and more focused on what is new and what will come next, instead of exploring what is there and what is available.

I can imagine this also has a negative effect on scenario designers: it makes a difference in motivation if hundreds of players are downloading a scenario, playing it and discussing it, or if twenty or thirty players give it a quick look but then already the next content is released and the focus shifts away.

Big companies release one family title every year and this usually is by far enough to keep the player busy. Here with one engine release we have two, and soon three new games (CMFI, CMBN, CMEF). This makes on average a new game every quarter.

With the modules this average timespan for new content is reduced even more.

IMO it would be better to lenghten the release durations but to invest more time into the next game version, a more rapid engine improvement but less new content releases.

[dan/california]

If you could provide some flexibility with my two children under two years?........ I might have time to appreciate your good work.