Bimmer Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 After the various discussions about feedback for scenario designers (or more accurately the general lack thereof), I've decided to try a little experiment. I've got a new head-to-head scenario - Misty Mountain Hop - pretty close to done, but I'm holding it hostage until one of the following conditions is met: either I get three new comments (real detailed comments, not just a word or two) for each of the two CMFI scenarios I've got in the Repository - Palma di Montechiaro and The Hills Have Eyes, or two players get together to do a pair of detailed, turn-by-turn AAR threads for a PBEM game of one of those two scenarios. In the latter case you'll get the new scenario when you get through the first ten turns of the PBEM. Let's see how this works. :cool: A little tease: 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Map looks nice, but I'm curious: when was it overcast in Sicily that summer? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 We don't negotiate with terrorists ! I mean, I will try to give feedback on scenarios I play. The problem is that I play almost solely PBEM and by the time the scenario is over I can't really remember what happened (I don't take notes). Good luck in finding play-testers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 Map looks nice, but I'm curious: when was it overcast in Sicily that summer? When it's 0630 and there's fog in the mountains. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I accept that challenge....now I just have to find time to play those scenarios...... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Badger73 Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 After the various discussions about feedback for scenario designers (or more accurately the general lack thereof), I've decided to try a little experiment. I've got a new head-to-head scenario - Misty Mountain Hop - pretty close to done, but I'm holding it hostage until one of the following conditions is met: either I get three new comments (real detailed comments, not just a word or two) for each of the two CMFI scenarios I've got in the Repository - Palma di Montechiaro and The Hills Have Eyes, or two players get together to do a pair of detailed, turn-by-turn AAR threads for a PBEM game of one of those two scenarios. In the latter case you'll get the new scenario when you get through the first ten turns of the PBEM. Let's see how this works. :cool: <snipped> @Bimmer, I have yet to screw my courage to the sticking place and play PBEM or H2H. If you develop the AI plans for solo play, I would post my AARs. Good luck and good gaming! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darknight (DC) Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 Hmm, Mord and I are in the later stages of a large PBEM game....maybe he'd be interested in playing this one for our next adventure. I have an AAR in process on the one we're playing that is now at 60+ pages (planning to post it after we finish). To get this straight, it's a H2H scenario, right? with the forces already set and some kind of back story? 'Cause that sounds right up our alley. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltorrente Posted October 17, 2012 Share Posted October 17, 2012 I played a PBEM of The Hills Have Eyes, and it needs a lot of work. There's no breaks in the grape vines, so you can't advance through them. You have to run along the outside of them in the open, and it creates a situtation where the attacker is funneled into the corners of the town, clearly visible and vulnerable to troops in multi-story, stone buildings. The reinforcements are visbile to the enemy the instant they appear on screen from the defender setup zone (?!?!). The 60mm mortars are worthless against the houses, and they contain no smoke rounds so the kill-zone approaches into the city can't be covered. My opponent and I both agreed that it was an interesting idea for a scenario, and seemed like it could have been fun, but it was implemented poorly. Put some breaks in the grape vines, give smoke to the mortars, and change the LOS/terrain so the reinforcements don't get shot at the instant they arrive. This map is just way too easy for the defender, unless he's completely inept. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted October 17, 2012 Author Share Posted October 17, 2012 @Bimmer, I have yet to screw my courage to the sticking place and play PBEM or H2H. If you develop the AI plans for solo play, I would post my AARs. Good luck and good gaming! The Hills Have Eyes does include AI plans for both sides, though my suggestion would be to play as US vs. German AI. Hmm, Mord and I are in the later stages of a large PBEM game....maybe he'd be interested in playing this one for our next adventure. I have an AAR in process on the one we're playing that is now at 60+ pages (planning to post it after we finish). To get this straight, it's a H2H scenario, right? with the forces already set and some kind of back story? 'Cause that sounds right up our alley. This one is being held hostage, but Palma di Montechiaro is based on historical events described in the briefing and includes two pure H2H variants, one more historically correct and one with a bit of an ahistorical twist. I played a PBEM of The Hills Have Eyes, and it needs a lot of work. There's no breaks in the grape vines, so you can't advance through them. You have to run along the outside of them in the open, and it creates a situtation where the attacker is funneled into the corners of the town, clearly visible and vulnerable to troops in multi-story, stone buildings. The reinforcements are visbile to the enemy the instant they appear on screen from the defender setup zone (?!?!). The 60mm mortars are worthless against the houses, and they contain no smoke rounds so the kill-zone approaches into the city can't be covered. My opponent and I both agreed that it was an interesting idea for a scenario, and seemed like it could have been fun, but it was implemented poorly. Put some breaks in the grape vines, give smoke to the mortars, and change the LOS/terrain so the reinforcements don't get shot at the instant they arrive. This map is just way too easy for the defender, unless he's completely inept. All I will say is that it is entirely possible to move among vineyards in any direction if you plot movement appropriately for the terrain; 60mm mortars can and will demolish buildings with enough concentrated fire, and will suppress occupants effectively with less (and no smoke round is available in-game); and arriving troops will become visible at some point in their advance, which may or may not coincide with the boundaries of the map. Is it particularly surprising that a defending force might have settled on a position incorporating a terrain feature that is advantageous to them? Oh, and testing suggests that your single result does not necessarily correlate with a larger sample. But thank you for your feedback. P.S. - Please do not post spoilers for any scenario in this thread, especially not without an appropriate warning. Thank you. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kohlenklau Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 Telephone poles! I'll get my tape measure and check the spacing.... I played Hills Have Eyes versus axis AI and can send you a PM with as much detailed feedback as I can. I did leave a few comments in the repository. If I was ever assigned as a play tester I would make very detailed notes for feedback but as normal fun play I am like others and don't take notes and might only offer a few general impressions. I haven't busted out of my "just vs AI" play paradigm YET. If you want me to playtest as "vs AI", I volunteer! 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 My experience so far is that troops will indeed cross vineyards "across the grain" provided that you give them their orders in short stages, say two or three lanes in a single impulse at most. If you try to order them to cross the entire vineyard, or even half of it, in one go, they will instead find a path around the outside. It may also help to use the Move command rather than something faster, but I haven't tested for that so take that with a large grain of salt. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted October 18, 2012 Author Share Posted October 18, 2012 Telephone poles! I'll get my tape measure and check the spacing.... I played Hills Have Eyes versus axis AI and can send you a PM with as much detailed feedback as I can. I did leave a few comments in the repository. If I was ever assigned as a play tester I would make very detailed notes for feedback but as normal fun play I am like others and don't take notes and might only offer a few general impressions. I haven't busted out of my "just vs AI" play paradigm YET. If you want me to playtest as "vs AI", I volunteer! Don't both checking the spacing; I didn't. No need for PMs here - if you want to you can leave your more detailed comments in the announcement thread in the Scenarios subforum. I'm not looking for new playtesters at the moment, but if that changes I'll let you know. Thanks for the offer. My experience so far is that troops will indeed cross vineyards "across the grain" provided that you give them their orders in short stages, say two or three lanes in a single impulse at most. If you try to order them to cross the entire vineyard, or even half of it, in one go, they will instead find a path around the outside. It may also help to use the Move command rather than something faster, but I haven't tested for that so take that with a large grain of salt. I haven't tried it with Move, but Slow and Hunt do seem to help. Short stages are, of course, critical. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Vergeltungswaffe Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I have found that slow works well in vineyards. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted October 18, 2012 Share Posted October 18, 2012 I like Move because it works and the troops don't get as tired. Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 Well, my experiment is going along pretty much as I expected. It's been a month since I posted this offer, and so far I've gotten two new reviews for The Hills Have Eyes (there are now four total, but two were there before I posted this) and none for Palma di Montechiaro, and no one has opted to do the public AAR. It's been said before by me and other designers on this forum: you'll get more content if you give something back to the designers occasionally. This experiment is just showing how hard it is to get decent amounts of feedback even when you incentivize it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fuser Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 I understand you, but in my opinion, you should do it for yourself then share if you feel like it, don't expect anything beforehand, specially these days. Good luck with the scenario , I know the huge amount of effort it takes to make a good one. Thanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltorrente Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Yeah, I'm thinking people don't want to "work for it". Make the scenario because you like making scenarios. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
umlaut Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 Yeah, I'm thinking people don't want to "work for it". Make the scenario because you like making scenarios. If people couldn´t be bothered to work for it, why should Bimmer be bothered to upload it? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted November 19, 2012 Author Share Posted November 19, 2012 Don't misunderstand my intentions here. I know, and have stated previously, that self-motivation is the only way that anyone who adds free content is going to keep going; doing it for the adulation of others is never going to work. I do design scenarios because I enjoy it; making some of them available to others is done by choice. This was from the beginning a social experiment, and I said so in the first post. I wanted to see if incentivizing the process had any real effect on willingness of consumers to provide feedback. I didn't expect it would, and I was right (within an admittedly very small sample size). As to people "not wanting to work for it," well, people don't want to work for a lot of things. I don't like going to work some days, but I do it because there is a clear cost-benefit relationship wherein I provide a service in exchange for mutually-agreed-upon compensation. It's a free market exchange. I have little sympathy or concern for those who aren't willing to do more than expect something for nothing, and complain when they don't get what they want. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blazing 88's Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 ...Could be some people, like myself, downloaded the scenario, but have not got around to playing it yet if ever. I can say the same thing for all of the hundreds of CMx1 scenarios and ops that I have downloaded over the years... I collect them doesn't mean I get around to using them. So how can I comment on them? I appreciate all designers hard work, I really do, I just do not have time to barely play the game yet alone write a detailed AAR or comment. Sorry. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
George MC Posted November 19, 2012 Share Posted November 19, 2012 As much as I admire your initiative I pretty much do scenario design to play stuff I like/want to play. hence it being released to the general CM playing public is a bonus. That cuts both ways cos I choose to take notice or totally disregard any feedback It's not a users market. If that dynamic changes, as you are hoping/trying to initiate then I'd be more inclined to listening to feedback. In saying that genuine considered feedback is gold dust and that well i do take notice off. I'm not much into whining though... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bimmer Posted November 30, 2012 Author Share Posted November 30, 2012 Just a quick update on the progress of my little experiment. The Hills Have Eyes has been reviewed by three helpful players since I posted this (there are now five total reviews of it), and one more review has been added to Palma di Montechiaro. That means we're only two reviews for the latter scenario away from triggering the release of Misty Mountain Hop. Thanks to those who have taken the time to review my previous scenarios; I hope you (and others) will continue to contribute reviews to all the designers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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