Recon units approaching - What would you do?

[Steven482]

In my recent game CMFI I am defending a hamlet of houses. It is surrounded by a lot of open fields / brush terrain. I have positioned a lot of my MGs in Overwatch in some of the buildings as well far to the back on a hill position. This hill has some excellent views across the plains, however my opponent owns a similar hill on his side of the map.

Now I have spotted 1 (split) squad of Infantry maybe some 250m away running towards my positions across the open towards some natural cover (light woods).

I could easily open fire from the buildings (or even the hill --> 450m), but I fear that I would give away my positions too early w/o knowing a full attack picture yet. This of course would probably ask for another Artillery Strike (or even Airstrike) onto my positions.

My opponent already started the scenario with a *HUGE* Artillery barrage (incl. Smoke) at another possible direction of attack. I also heard some aircraft passing by overhead.

Shall I wait and hold my fire until I know more, basically allowing his recon squad to enter cover? It will be much more difficult to dislodge them there later. Or should I try to take them out while they are still in the open.

What would you do?

Steven

[Steiner14]

Does he move in with combined forces or only a lonely spearhead?

If it's only a spearhead, i would keep the long distance units (HMGs & mortars) silent and wait until he is ~50m away from the houses. Then i would open fire from two angled positions. After this unit is eliminated (should be no problem with crossfire in the open) i would leave the houses and change the position.

[LongLeftFlank]

Move a team forward to engage it, preferably not from your defenses... He'll likely stop scouting to engage it, or open fire with other forces, possibly betraying his attack concentration.... do YOU have artillery too? More lead time on a fire mission (e.g. not Emergency) makes a huge difference.

[YankeeDog]

The devil is, as always, in the details, so it's very hard to say what the right action is in your specific situation without actually seeing a map showing the exact tactical situation. But in general, when defending I am pretty aggressive about dealing with enemy forward scouts/recon units. If left alone, forward scouts will provide very important information to the enemy regarding the disposition of my force.

The best way to deal with forward scouts is to have some element of your defense that is strong enough to deal with recon units, but also either (1) capable of remaining hidden from the enemy while doing so (ex: Sniper in good cover and at range), and/or (2) capable of re-positioning after it has engaged the enemy (ex: squad infantry with a good covered route of withdrawal). Basically, you need forward pickets ahead of your MLR to deal with his scouts. This is an important part of a well-constructed defense.

It's generally a bad idea to reveal your MLR heavy weapons positions to deal with a few small enemy infantry teams. The attacker almost always has a firepower advantage, and he therefore is very likely able to very quickly bring heavy fire down on revealed heavy weapons positions. You also generally don't want to waste a valuable asset like off-map artillery on a small infantry team. These traps are the CM equivalent of trading a Rook for a Pawn, and will quickly deplete your defense of assets it needs to deal with the attacker's main effort.

So if you can, try to engage his forward scouts as economically as possible. For example, you could hit the scouts as they cross open ground with fire from a few infantry teams of your own, and then shift these teams to new locations before the attacker can bring down fire from overwatch and/or indirect assets. This can be an effective way of limiting the information the attacker gains from forward scouts, as well as hopefully attriting his force a bit. Even if you don't kill the scouts, you'll at least slow them down, and when defending it is often effective to disrupt the attacker's timetable.

With all of the above said, you don't want to engage simply for engagement's sake. Sometimes it's not really necessary to deal with forward scouts. If the scouts are heading into an area that doesn't give them good observation of important areas of your defense, it may be best to just let them go. Don't let the attacker bait you into revealing assets by engaging before you need to.

[newlife]

I like armor in this roll as well. If you have a good spot on the map that allows an armored unit to bounce between several overwatch positions you can engage briefly then pop back into cover before he moves his armor up. Attackers are less likely to have hidden ATGs so in this particular game you have a slight advantage because he WILL be worried about yours. While you are revealing that you have it, as a mobile asset it keeps a level of uncertainty for the opponent with regards to possible positions.

[Erwin]

The most important advice per the above is to move your firing units immediately afterwards to a 2nd safe defense position. The attacker will almost certainly obliterate their position if you let em stay in place (unless they are keyholed or can fire from a position that is impossible for the attacker to see until he is already in a kill zone).

[c3k]

Fix bayonets and charge! Kill the interlopers. If you allow one of them in, then like cockroaches, rats, and fleas, they will multiply and overwhelm you. By advancing in the open, they are taunting you. Your manhood has been challenged. If you keep your men cowering and hiding in their dugouts they will no longer respect you. Attack, as always.

Let us know how it works.

[LongLeftFlank]

Thank you, "Bushido Ken". If my CM PC was functioning, I'd throw together an Alligator Creek scenario just for you!

P.S. You need to put that in your sigline. We will razz you mercilessly for quoting yourself, but it'll still be less egomaniacal than Emrys.

[womble]

Also, don't worry about "dislodging them later" if they're not actually in a position you'll want to kick 'em out of.

[Tempestzzzz]

Let them come in-and bring there brothers in after they signal "ALL CLEAR!:)"

Hide your men and keep the firing arcs small. Better -more important targets are coming down the road.

Nothing more devastating then fresh troops up close pouring it on.

:eek:

You nullify his artillery by letting his men get to close to you.

[Baneman]

Fix bayonets and charge! Kill the interlopers. If you allow one of them in, then like cockroaches, rats, and fleas, they will multiply and overwhelm you. By advancing in the open, they are taunting you. Your manhood has been challenged. If you keep your men cowering and hiding in their dugouts they will no longer respect you. Attack, as always.

Lol, were you French in a previous life ? "Doctrine of the Attack !"

[Andrew H.]

60 mm mortar works well and is hard to detect.

[womble]

60 mm mortar works well and is hard to detect.

And has the added benefit of ranging in a mortar so it never needs to fire "ranging rounds" in direct fire mode again...

[Erwin]

"You nullify his artillery by letting his men get to close to you."

Yes. Good point... And in attack the problem is often the reverse.

[Michael Emrys]

...but it'll still be less egomaniacal than Emrys.

Egomaniacal? Me??? Surely you have me confused with someone else? I, on the other hand, merely have a healthy self-image.

Michael

[Scrummage]

Nullify their arty? I would open fire even if my recon squad (s) was danger close.I would lose just 3 men ;-)

[Wodin]

Talking of ambushes I'd love an order hold fire unless engaged. Many times I've read an AAR where the Inf start shooting when the player didn't want them too, thus giving away their positions, esp in WEGO.

Hopefully in version 3 of the engine we have that order.

[Steven482]

Thanks for all those good suggestions.

I have decided to move forward some local elements that are currently hiding in the brush, then pull them back immediately. This will be a short engament. The enemy is on full flight, so he will have some hard time to spot me moving forward.

Steven

[womble]

Talking of ambushes I'd love an order hold fire unless engaged. Many times I've read an AAR where the Inf start shooting when the player didn't want them too, thus giving away their positions, esp in WEGO.

A short cover arc will almost always prevent troops shooting when the player doesn't want them to. It won't necessarily cause them to return fire when engaged, but if "keeping them from firing when you don't want them to" is why you want a "hold fire" order, then it already exists.

[Erwin]

Troops will override the covered arc limitation in certain situations, but we have little/no info on what those parameters are.

I can see how a "Return Fire Only If Fired Upon" order would be useful. But, personally I think I would have used it very little in any games I have played.

Probably a set of "Standing Orders" commands would be useful, including tank and inf formations when moving. But, that would mean a radically different UI.

[Wodin]

Well in an AAR just finished don this site Bill I think it was had a small recon team that ended up firing on a PAK giving their positions away and I think it happened twice.

Thats what brought it to mind. I will say its been along time since I booted up a CM game so I'm abit rusty on particular orders. I just thought when reading that a no fire unless fired upon would have stopped that recon team taking pot shots at the PAK.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Probably a set of "Standing Orders" commands would be useful, including tank and inf formations when moving. But, that would mean a radically different UI.

I've been in the pro-SOP camp forever, for all the good it's done.

[Michael Emrys]

I've been in the pro-SOP camp forever, for all the good it's done.

Same here. No doubt I sound like a broken record on this subject.

Michael