Tips on pacing (or patience)?

[Javaslinger]

I am finding that I'm moving way to fast and not nearly using the time allotted to me. But I have no concept of how slowly and methodically is necessary or even how to move slowly and methodically...

Any advice on this?

[Ranger33]

It's entirely dependent on the scenario really. Overall I would say CMFI requires more mobile attacks than CMBN, just due to the open nature of the terrain. If you are winning scenarios and not taking excess casualties (usually one of the mission objectives), then you aren't doing anything wrong. I find that I use much more of the available time when playing RT than WeGo.

A great example is the second mission in the Italian campaign. First time around I tried to do a slow, steady combined arms attack with infantry leading the way and tanks in support. This didn't work at all as the Americans have a ton of direct LOS mortars and MGs ready as soon as you cross over the first ridge. Moving slowly would only result in massive losses.

(**spoilers**) I found the best solution for that scenario was to follow the briefing advice and launch a direct armored assault. The only (well, mostly) danger to your tanks is mortar fire, so basically you just roll them rapidly across the map, pausing briefly to fire, and you can win the scenario in 20 minutes, without losing a single man.

[slysniper]

It's entirely dependent on the scenario really. Overall I would say CMFI requires more mobile attacks than CMBN, just due to the open nature of the terrain. If you are winning scenarios and not taking excess casualties (usually one of the mission objectives), then you aren't doing anything wrong. I find that I use much more of the available time when playing RT than WeGo.

A great example is the second mission in the Italian campaign. First time around I tried to do a slow, steady combined arms attack with infantry leading the way and tanks in support. This didn't work at all as the Americans have a ton of direct LOS mortars and MGs ready as soon as you cross over the first ridge. Moving slowly would only result in massive losses.

(**spoilers**) I found the best solution for that scenario was to follow the briefing advice and launch a direct armored assault. The only (well, mostly) danger to your tanks is mortar fire, so basically you just roll them rapidly across the map, pausing briefly to fire, and you can win the scenario in 20 minutes, without losing a single man.

What did you say. A briefing that if you follow its instructions, it actually works.

Wow, that is a new one. Give the designer a "ata boy" for that. seldom do we find a briefing that if not full of lies to try and get you to do what the designer wants, which is normally bad.

[slysniper]

As for speed of play.

When playing, I try to push the battle as fast as I can when on offense, it is part of gaining and keeping the advantage. The trick is doing it at a pace where you do not lead your forward units into trouble without proper support or pushing a section of area too quickly without protecting your flanks.

No easy way to explain that. That is part of the art of war. Many things will be factors as to how and when you do certain things.

But I find many players play way to slow in HtoH. Time and time again when I am on defence. I see someone break my front lines but are so scared to risk commiting some units to see what they have done that by the time they have gained any ground I have regrouped my units and brought up reserves to give them more hell on the battlefield, which could have been theirs for the taking if they play a little more aggressive.

But charging head first into the enemy is not the method either.

I think of it as water flowing. push against the enemy lines find the weaknesses and find the easiest path that leads to your objectives.

If there is no weakness, then group your forces into a fist and punch a area until it is a weakness and exploit it.

[Ranger33]

What did you say. A briefing that if you follow its instructions, it actually works.

Wow, that is a new one. Give the designer a "ata boy" for that. seldom do we find a briefing that if not full of lies to try and get you to do what the designer wants, which is normally bad.

My thoughts exactly. The briefing suggests a rapid armored attack across wide open terrain, my CMSF senses began tingling immediately. You just don't do that sort of thing, especially when the scenario author suggests it.

Also, your points about being aggressive and commiting to an attack are spot on. It can be the difference between breaking a defense wide open or settling in for a war of attrition, which the defender usually wins. Of course, the trick is knowing the right place and time to commit

[Sublime]

I always find its good to slow down on whatever Im doing. I often find myself about to press a squad or two further into a town and when Im about to do it I try to catch myself and give it one more turn, and usually that means the rest of the platoon or assault force is now caught up - a good thing =)

Not to say that keeping an opponent off balance when an attack has begun isnt a good thing either - some of my pbem opponents have commented on how quickly i race troops around the map and attack. Speed has its benefits, but it definitely also comes with a price in these games...

[MikeyD]

I find myself scouting/maneuvering, scouting/maneuvering. Sometimes the scenario's time is half expired by the time I trade the first shots. The downside to that is I often watch the timer numbers go into the red before I've made that last epic assault into the victory location that I had done all my maneuvering for!

[nik mond]

If there are AT guns present, a tank rush will likely not work, and you'll lose the initiative. Move out quickly by bounds. Know the safe zones so you can take a breather. And sometimes you just gotta send that jeep driver out for a looksy.

[GerryCMBB]

Some caution is definitely needed. Scouting/maneuvering, lather, rinse, and repeat as MikeyD says.

I also try to gauge how I am doing by dividing the map into say thirds and comparing my progress to the time used. Gives you a rough idea if you need to speed up.

I have also done what Sublime says. Want to move across some terrain say, but giving it one more minute or so to apply more suppressive fire first. Have caught myself doing this a lot. Many scenarios have 45 - 60 minutes so you really do have more time than you might think. I was used to the 7 turns in ASL so I feel I have lots of time usually.

Gerry

[Bison]

I've started playing the game using turns instead of real time and the pacing has been quite the challenge. Learning to time events so that they happen when you want them is a pretty sizable learning curve. Supporting fires to suppress enemy positions while I bound a squad across an open field to a building or other cover for example. I often find myself yelling at my pixeljoes to run faster, increase thier rate of fire or stop piddling around the open field and find cover! Heh. Good times.

[Michael Emrys]

If you don't already have a good idea of the defense's setup, sitting tight while you send out scouts is a good idea. But once you've settled on a plan of attack, put everything you have into it. It is now time to roll the dice and find out how good your plan is. Holding back is, as others have posted, a sure way to lose or at least dilute your victory.

Michael

[Paper Tiger]

What did you say. A briefing that if you follow its instructions, it actually works.

I have to confess that it surprises me when I read that people actually want the briefing to tell them what they should do. I would have thought that would count as a SPOILER? I prefer to know exactly what my mission objectives are and then decide how I should go about it myself. I would imagine a RL commander wouldn't be showing much respect for his subordinates abilities if he were to direct the attack himself. However, if that really is what you guys want, I'll be happy to tell you what to do in the future. It would be a simple enough thing to put this battle plan on the Tactical Map for example, and it would look good too.

seldom do we find a briefing that if not full of lies to try and get you to do what the designer wants, which is normally bad.

Seldom is perhaps overstating the case When I took over co-ordination of the three CMSF NATO campaigns, it was my stated intention that the briefings should NEVER deliberately mislead the player. It's a old, and very tired trick that's been around as long as CMx1 has been around. It's frankly boring IMO.

[Michael Emrys]

I would imagine a RL commander wouldn't be showing much respect for his subordinates abilities if he were to direct the attack himself.

Except that is precisely how the British army went about it. And they weren't the only ones by a long shot either.

That said, I'm with you on this:

I prefer to know exactly what my mission objectives are and then decide how I should go about it myself.

On the other hand, I am fully in favor of the briefing sharing any intelligence that might reasonably be known at this level, including incorrect intelligence if the designer is making a historical scenario/campaign and is well informed on what each side knew or thought.

Michael

[Paper Tiger]

Except that is precisely how the British army went about it. And they weren't the only ones by a long shot either.

Well, I'd be happy to do this as well if that's really what people want. Of course, the player doesn't have to follow my recommended plan if he doesn't want to. And there's no guarantee that it won't get you into trouble.

On the other hand, I am fully in favor of the briefing sharing any intelligence that might reasonably be known at this level, including incorrect intelligence if the designer is making a historical scenario/campaign and is well informed on what each side knew or thought.

I think most of the Beta designers already do this. But I don't have much time to play other folks stuff so I'm not exactly well-informed here (One day, I hope to take a break from designing and enjoy playing some from time to time though)

[TrailApe]

I think of it as water flowing. push against the enemy lines find the weaknesses and find the easiest path that leads to your objectives.

If there is no weakness, then group your forces into a fist and punch a area until it is a weakness and exploit it.

So.....

instead of Schwerpunkt we are saying tsunami?

You could be onto something there - "The use of hydrostatic force in manouvre warfare"

[A Canadian Cat]

One thing I have been doing lately is getting my pacing ques from my own men. Once a platoon has moved or assaulted into their latest position I have a look at their status, Tired, Tiring, Ready etc. I'll give the whole unit a breather letting each squad get back to Ready (unless something urgent comes up of course). During that time I can reorganize their formation and split / not split choices. Perhaps split of a scout team from the first squad to recover to start to get ready for the next step in the plan. Seems to be working pretty well.

[slysniper]

I have to confess that it surprises me when I read that people actually want the briefing to tell them what they should do. I would have thought that would count as a SPOILER? I prefer to know exactly what my mission objectives are and then decide how I should go about it myself. I would imagine a RL commander wouldn't be showing much respect for his subordinates abilities if he were to direct the attack himself. However, if that really is what you guys want, I'll be happy to tell you what to do in the future. It would be a simple enough thing to put this battle plan on the Tactical Map for example, and it would look good too.

Seldom is perhaps overstating the case When I took over co-ordination of the three CMSF NATO campaigns, it was my stated intention that the briefings should NEVER deliberately mislead the player. It's a old, and very tired trick that's been around as long as CMx1 has been around. It's frankly boring IMO.

My comments were in fun, not a attack on a designer.

I look at briefings for what they are, I will take what info I can from them and then do what I want. I pay little attention to what tactics they tell me to use. But again, who is to say what is a good tactic, maybe what is being suggested is good, for someone else, but maybe not me.

All I know is there is plenty of times where I am glad I did not follow what the briefing was trying to lead me to do. But truthfully. maybe a majority of briefings are giving good advice, not like I am going to try to point out bad briefings.

Truely the only bad briefing to me is one that does try to lead you down a poor path. But in general, if there is a briefing like that. normally there might not be a good path available.

[slysniper]

So.....

instead of Schwerpunkt we are saying tsunami?

You could be onto something there - "The use of hydrostatic force in manouvre warfare"

Ah, the future of warfare, a whole new doctrine of winning tactics. I better start writting now.

[TrailApe]

Well when you are famous - remember the 'community'.

[slysniper]

One thing I have been doing lately is getting my pacing ques from my own men. Once a platoon has moved or assaulted into their latest position I have a look at their status, Tired, Tiring, Ready etc. I'll give the whole unit a breather letting each squad get back to Ready (unless something urgent comes up of course). During that time I can reorganize their formation and split / not split choices. Perhaps split of a scout team from the first squad to recover to start to get ready for the next step in the plan. Seems to be working pretty well.

There is many aspects to think about, this is good. But while these units need to regroup, there should be more going on.

Example. I attack with my units in depth. So a company might have one or two platoons forward. when the forward unit gets to the conditions mentioned here, then I pull the reseve platoon forward to keep constaint pressure on the enemy, they push the attack as I regroup the other units.

Then you should think about this in larger levels also. So behind this company. i have another company. So as the battle progresses and I come to the end of the match. I can push a whole new fresh company to pick up where the old one is spent and needs to stop attacking.

This is a fist. I can put constaint hard pressure in a localized area, if the enemy appears to break. i have troops ready to exploit that break. No time is given for the enemy to recover. YES , SCOUT, YES BE READY TO PROTECT MOVING UNITS, AND SO FORTH. BUT PUSH, AND WHEN YOU DO. take advantage of the enemy weaknesses. When they break, dont play to their strengths take the paths that are the easiest to your goals.

I am playing a battle right now where the defender has two excellent flank positions that I have no interest in trying to take. He thinks he has me pinned on both ends. But I have found multible areas and paths not defended well in his middle and my troops are flowing into his center, I hope to find flanking positions to his strong points on the flanks and either get him in a cross fire or watch as he will need to retreat and give up them excellent flank positions because he has committed too many troops there. So eiher way I will get my goal because I found the weakness and will exploit it to gain the advantage I need for my goals. I need the flanking objectives. By why pay a heavy price if I need not. So I am preparing my flanking units to be the fist if the time arrises, so they are just holding the enemy in place until the firepower is to my advantage.

It seems like water to me, find the path the seems the easiest and take it to your destination. If no path is there, then take enough water to force the path that is needed. A strong overflowing stream does much more damage than the same water spread out over a 100 meter path.

[slysniper]

Well when you are famous - remember the 'community'.

Actually I think the concept has been around for a long while. There is a book from an samurai written like a 1000 years ago that talks about the elements of the earth and warfare and tactics. There are five areas. Famous book, I cannot remember the title right now. It is very symbolic and it is sold for business strategy

[sburke]

Actually I think the concept has been around for a long while. There is a book from an samurai written like a 1000 years ago that talks about the elements of the earth and warfare and tactics. There are five areas. Famous book, I cannot remember the title right now. It is very symbolic and it is sold for business strategy

I think you are referrring to Miyamoto Musashi and the book of Five Rings (written closer to 400 years ago. Musashi was around for the emergence of the Tokugawa Shogunate. Samurai as a distinct class did not emerge until around the 12th Century). Interesting side note, in Kyoto you can visit a temple that was the scene of one of his more famous exploits.

[sburke]

There is many aspects to think about, this is good. But while these units need to regroup, there should be more going on.

Example. I attack with my units in depth. So a company might have one or two platoons forward. when the forward unit gets to the conditions mentioned here, then I pull the reseve platoon forward to keep constaint pressure on the enemy, they push the attack as I regroup the other units.

Then you should think about this in larger levels also. So behind this company. i have another company. So as the battle progresses and I come to the end of the match. I can push a whole new fresh company to pick up where the old one is spent and needs to stop attacking.

This is a fist. I can put constaint hard pressure in a localized area, if the enemy appears to break. i have troops ready to exploit that break. No time is given for the enemy to recover. YES , SCOUT, YES BE READY TO PROTECT MOVING UNITS, AND SO FORTH. BUT PUSH, AND WHEN YOU DO. take advantage of the enemy weaknesses. When they break, dont play to their strengths take the paths that are the easiest to your goals.

I am playing a battle right now where the defender has two excellent flank positions that I have no interest in trying to take. He thinks he has me pinned on both ends. But I have found multible areas and paths not defended well in his middle and my troops are flowing into his center, I hope to find flanking positions to his strong points on the flanks and either get him in a cross fire or watch as he will need to retreat and give up them excellent flank positions because he has committed too many troops there. So eiher way I will get my goal because I found the weakness and will exploit it to gain the advantage I need for my goals. I need the flanking objectives. By why pay a heavy price if I need not. So I am preparing my flanking units to be the fist if the time arrises, so they are just holding the enemy in place until the firepower is to my advantage.

It seems like water to me, find the path the seems the easiest and take it to your destination. If no path is there, then take enough water to force the path that is needed. A strong overflowing stream does much more damage than the same water spread out over a 100 meter path.

Beware as you may find your forces flowing into a kill sack. I am wary of moving through areas my opponent is allowing me too. One tactic I learned to be successful in CMFI was to have a fully prepared combined arms approach. What was critical was to have an arty plan that was suffuciently supportive of my infantry. Look over the terrain closely and figure out where you would place defending units to block your advance. Ignore the Vls. They denote where you have to go but not necessarily the best defensive terrain. TRPs are critical - don't waste them. Note the area your trops have to emerge from and make sure your artillery is capable of hitting the areas the enemy is likely going to place defenders. If you don't your infantry are going to have to either suppress the enemy position on their own or wait while you get fire on the defenders and during that time they will likely become targets themselves for opposing artllery.

[MikeyD]

Playing CM:Afghanistan you learn to win through firepower. Soviets forces at that time were vehicle-heavy but with the wimpiest infantry squads you ever did see due to manpower shortages. They make the British seem robust in comparison. So you learn to use every means at your disposal besides the infantry to win an engagement. Ideally the role of infantry is to advance over the already-charred bodies of their enemies to occupy an objective. If there's still opposition as the infantry advances your tanks and artillery haven't done their job properly.

[A Canadian Cat]

There is many aspects to think about, this is good. But while these units need to regroup, there should be more going on.

Example. I attack with my units in depth. So a company might have one or two platoons forward. when the forward unit gets to the conditions mentioned here, then I pull the reserve platoon forward to keep constant pressure on the enemy, they push the attack as I regroup the other units.

<snip>

Absolutely - I was just focusing on the platoon level and pacing their advance. The ideal is, as you said, while one unit is regrouping (they are often still in a supporting position offering a fire base for example) you have others that are on the move. You time the way you advance to allow this - just as @slysniper said. However it does not always work as planned. I have one fight going on now where, as the attacker I decided to attack on two flanks and "ignore" the centre. I am not really ignoring it. One flank is moving really well my platoons are bounding along their route and have rolled up one line of defense in the centre and are working on the next one - from their flank. Just as @slysniper suggested that company is putting constant pressure on because one or two platoons are always moving while the other one or two are regrouping. This is "going well".

On the other flank they met a real stubborn resistance. The company at the pointy end has just overrun their main strong point and are in need of a slower pace. Normally my second company would be right there ready to go. But my attack time table was thrown off by enemy artillery. My following company is getting tired trying to catchup. I have no choice but to slow the whole thing down for a time. Again taking my ques from my men. This is "not going well".

This is where patience comes in. My lead company does not have to move out before the second company gets there I can wait to do it properly. There are still plenty of targets to shoot at and I can see a possible counter attack in the works. With any luck the defender will not notice much of a slow down at all. Or they might even mistake if for a loss of momentum and strike with a counter attack just when my fresh company arrives. Patience sometimes has other dividends.