skelley Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 40 seconds into a scenario and my infantry spot a sharpshooter at over 500m. The sharpshooter is in the super rocky terrain with shrubs. No possible way he could be spotted that quick. Go outside and look around... Does anybody think they could spot 2 people that are doing their best to remain unseen in rocky terrain? There needs to be a lot of work done in this area. All I have to do is move a team into LOS and I can spot damn near every enemy position (especially At guns) and call down artillery. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 a one time incident doesnt prove anything. for example a lens flare can be seen from miles away - especially in a hot arid enviroment like sicily in july/august 1943. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Its over and over and over again. This isn't my first game. This has been the case since CMSF. Also... less than 3 minutes in I spotted the FO that I placed in the scenario and through the AI system set it to hide. Same Rocky terrain. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Running tests now.... Will be more than happy to share the test scenario with anyone. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Michael Emrys Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 for example a lens flare can be seen from miles away... Is that really true? I know that that is a chestnut that writers of fiction have fallen back on many a time, but I've never had an opportunity to test the proposition and I do have my doubts. See, the thing is that the forward surface of an objective lens on, say, a telescope or pair of binoculars is convex, and that has the opposite effect on reflected light as a concave lens. That's is, instead of focusing the light as it reflects it, it disperses it. Instead of making it brighter and larger, it makes it dimmer and smaller. One other thing that makes me skeptical of the reflected flash, is that it would only work if the sun (or other bright light source) would have to be somewhere in the quadrant behind the viewer for the light to strike the lens at such an angle as to be reflected back to the viewer. How often is that going to happen? Michael 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
eltorrente Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 C'mon now.. seeing the lens flare isn't what is going on here. Give the guys a facing order and make them look the other way and it's not gonna make them suddenly invisible. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GreenAsJade Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 In addition to "inf spotting inf", there's still the "tanks spotting inf" thing too. I was sneaking up on a tank parked at the side of the road next to a forest. I bumped into a shield (crew member!) that my oppo had in the forest, alerting him. His next move was to drive the tank into the forsest, and it proceeded to mow down my tank hunters even before they saw it! I put it down to "one of those things", but since we're here talking about spotting ... how does a buttoned tank drive into a forest and hunt down tank hunters!? GaJ 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlowMotion Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 In addition to "inf spotting inf", there's still the "tanks spotting inf" thing too. I was sneaking up on a tank parked at the side of the road next to a forest. I bumped into a shield (crew member!) that my oppo had in the forest, alerting him. His next move was to drive the tank into the forsest, and it proceeded to mow down my tank hunters even before they saw it! I put it down to "one of those things", but since we're here talking about spotting ... how does a buttoned tank drive into a forest and hunt down tank hunters!? Does sound matter in spotting? A tank that has engine running should make quite a bit noise even when staying in one place. And when moving in forest even more. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Just ran 10 tests of the same scenario. 1 regular US squad vs. 1 regular German sniper. Sniper in rocky terrain with shrubs in elevated terrain 500+m away. American squad moving with hunt command. Average time to spot sniper on turn 1 is 41.1 seconds. 3 out of the 10 times it was spotted in 24 seconds with 2 outliers of 67 and 56 seconds. First shot usually rang out at about the 22 second mark. Which means that the average spot time was about 19.1 seconds. This sniper must have the world's worst luck with lens flares. I have the scenario if anybody wants to try it themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 My math was off... I wrote down 107 seconds instead of the 1 minute 7 seconds it was supposed to be. So it is 33.1 seconds from the start to spot and 11.1 seconds after first shot. I changed it above but not the other numbers. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stikkypixie Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 My math was off... I wrote down 107 seconds instead of the 1 minute 7 seconds it was supposed to be. So it is 33.1 seconds from the start to spot and 11.1 seconds after first shot. I changed it above but not the other numbers. I would like to give your test scenario a go, but you need to provide me with a copy of CMFI with it . Do you have a similar one in BN? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Carrying thermal imagers does make it so much more simple to spot the bad guys!! BTW should you also test it the other way round to see if US teams are better at remaining undetected. Good that you are testing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 I don't have it for CMBN but I can set 1 up for you fairly quickly. Speaking of CMBN.... I started a thread about how quickly an FO was able to spot a 50mm AT gun through thick trees and the gun was located in light woods tile with trees on it. Good point on CMSF. Do foot soldiers carry thermal imagers? I will switch sides on my test but I would bet its exactly the same result. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 I am wondering if he should test them at the same location with a new terrain text. maybe rocky is not concidered good concealment in the game. It would be interesting to see how these numbers compare to if the sniper is in short grass or a tall wheat field. Just saying, the game might not be giving them concealment in their present situation 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
slysniper Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 but beleive me I agree with you that spotting does not make sence at times in the game. but I dont expext perfection either, I am sure it is very limited as to what they have programmed to get it to work. compared to all the factors that are involved in real life as to why we see or do not see things that are out there. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 JonS posted in another thread that even people with really bad eyesight might actually spot something ahead of others. This was in the context of squads/tanks missing moving targets. I mention it here as without my glasses I am pretty blind and a large tree 100 yards away would merely be a shape. What I found this morning whilst lying in bed without my glasses I could actually see a parakeet fly across near the tree. Which tends to confirm that though are resolution of detail may be crap the ability to see motion remains very high. So spotting moving targets should be in general substantially higher than spotting non-moving targets. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 a one time incident doesnt prove anything. for example a lens flare can be seen from miles away - especially in a hot arid enviroment like sicily in july/august 1943. How about you count the number of threads that pop up about the same problems? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acrashb Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 Is that really true? [...]an objective lens on, say, a telescope or pair of binoculars is convex, and that has the opposite effect on reflected light as a concave lens. Yes. The primary effect of the convex lens is to make the reflection of the sun visible across a wider angle than from a flat piece of glass. Reflected light, even from a convex surface, has great intensity compared to diffused light (simplifying things) and is not natural, therefore standing out in our visual systems. This is why killflash (aka "anti-reflection") devices are sold to, and used by, working snipers. Also used by hunters - game can be spooked by the reflection. For example: Ad-hoc systems have always been available. A simple cardboard / leather tube extending from the scope front will do it, albeit while adding weight and bulk. They have the great side-effect (sometimes primary effect) of also keeping flare out of the telescopic sight - this applies to a scope shade (aka "cardboard / leather tube" and more formal variants) as well. Having said that, I have no opinion as to whether or not the game is modelling lens reflections as spotting tools... well, some opinion: likely not. The game would need to include sun, scope, and spotter positions in its calculations, which seems... not like something BFS would model. As the model would also need to include any issued and ad-hoc anti-reflection devices. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 40 seconds into a scenario and my infantry spot a sharpshooter at over 500m. The sharpshooter is in the super rocky terrain with shrubs. No possible way he could be spotted that quick. Go outside and look around... Does anybody think they could spot 2 people that are doing their best to remain unseen in rocky terrain? There needs to be a lot of work done in this area. All I have to do is move a team into LOS and I can spot damn near every enemy position (especially At guns) and call down artillery. If you can the best thing to do is provide a link to a save. I have no idea of who you are being spotted by, what distance, how the terrain is truly impacting it etc. Could be an issue, might not. Without something for others to see though it is pure conjecture. All you will get on the forum without it is opinions about how often or not others think they see the same behavior, you won't get much response from BF though. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 I am wondering if he should test them at the same location with a new terrain text. maybe rocky is not concidered good concealment in the game. It would be interesting to see how these numbers compare to if the sniper is in short grass or a tall wheat field. Just saying, the game might not be giving them concealment in their present situation Good idea. I will Test Heavy Woods with 3 trees and run some more tests. But I know if nothing has changed in spotting ability since CMBN the results will not be good. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 sburke....I don't know how to do the link thing. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 sburke....I don't know how to do the link thing. Pretty straightforward. Open a dropbox account (it is free for a small account), save the file into the public dropbox folder. Right click the file and you should see an entry for dropbox and under that an option for "copy public link" or something to that effect. Paste that into a post here and you are done. Anyone with the link can download the file but won't have access to anything else on your DB folder. It will make a big difference in that folks can now see exactly what you are seeing and can contribute much more concretely to the discussion. Sometimes it will mean folks see things you do not that may explain it or it might provide enough info to set up a test where the issue can be duplicated and if the result is clear enough BF will likely take more notice. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skelley Posted August 8, 2012 Author Share Posted August 8, 2012 Great. Thanks. Will try it after work. I will load the scenario up with a victory location where I set my first move way point and people can try it for themselves. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 It sounds like you're playing a whole different game than I am. Just yesterday I was messing around with another test scenario. It had 3 battalions (yes, battalions) of infantry dispersed on flat rocky ground 350-500 away from a single elite Tiger on a vantage point with full LOS over the entire map. I spent several minutes with the tank buttoned up and got only vague "?" contacts. I unbuttoned and it took a good minute or so to see a single guy and even then that was because he was for some strange reason running. I have routinely had Tigers take tens of hits from small calibre antitank guns without spotting them. Don't even ask me about taking fire from snipers without ever finding out where from. And this is just on Veteran difficulty. In CMFI especially, with the high elevation offered by many setup zones in QBs I'm routinely amazed by the fact that by the end of the battle there have been unspotted enemies in full view of the bulk of my forces for 30 minutes. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dieseltaylor Posted August 8, 2012 Share Posted August 8, 2012 ZPB - obvious noobie mistake - your tank was stationary : ) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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