New features wish list!

[JonS]

The Ambush command functioned differently than a covered arc. When an enemy unit neared the ambush marker the friendly unit would automatically un-hide, even if the enemy unit had not been spotted. On the one hand this was unrealistic, but on the other hand it got around the fact that hiding units are terrible at spotting and will sometime let enemy units walk right up to them. It made ambushes easier to pull off.

The other difference was that once the Ambush was triggered, the unit was free to engage at will. With covered arcs a well disciplined unit will stop firing once the enemy retreats out of the arc (or when there aren't any targets left). Depending on how your arc is set, this can mean your ambushing unit will open with a small fusilade as soon as the first unit crosses into the arc, then fall silent, while loads of poential targets mill about just beyond the arc.

That behaviour is easy enough to factor into your plans in order to get the behaviour you want, but you do need to realise that you need to factor it in.

[Childress]

I don't think "covered arc" + "hide" works very well for an ambush - troops that are hiding don't spot too well.

It can still work, but that's mostly right. There's a chance the enemy will penetrate deep into the arc before reaction is triggered.

I wish there were two states:

1- Hiding (kissing the ground hidden, virtually invisible)

2- Hiding with a Cover Arc (a bit less less hidden, slightly higher risk of detection)

In both states the members of a unit will 'peek'. But in state#2 the unit would always open fire if the Arc is violated. I seem to recall that CMAK and CMBB functioned this way.

[Kanonier Reichmann]

KR,

The Breda's a good MG, good enough for the LRDG. Believe you're thinking of this awful thing. The FIAT-Revelli Modello 1914, which used oiled cartridges.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat-Revelli_Modello_1914

Hi John.

I beg to differ. This is a quote from the Wikipedia webpage on the Breda 30 LMG.

Although distinctive in appearance, the Breda 30 was widely viewed as a poorly designed weapon. It had a slow rate of fire (although this increased accuracy), low magazine capacity, used the underpowered and unreliable 6.5×52mm cartridge and was highly prone to jamming. The vital oiling system quickly picked up dust and debris, making the weapon unreliable in combat conditions.

You can get to the page by clicking on your Wikipedia reference and then clicking on the linked page from that article on the Fiat-Revelli HMG. It appears that the common problem with the Italian MG design was the requirement for oiled cartridges, plus their closed bolt design that didn't allow the barrel to cool enough under prolonged firing. Basically, if you could possibly make all the wrong moves in an MG design it appears the Italians (before WWII) managed to achieve this undesireable goal with the above 2 model MG's.

Regards

KR

[Mord]

I don't think "covered arc" + "hide" works very well for an ambush - troops that are hiding don't spot too well. It's mainly a problem in WEGO (which i only play) - where you have to wait a whole minute, in a situation where the enemy moves into a units covered arc, but isn't spotted (because your men are hiding, and have reduced spotting) - before you can unhide them a fire, by which time it may be too late, it's compounded by the fact that you can't check LOS - because this is measured from your still hiding unit I believe this is because WEGO is RT with pauses, and is therefore a limitation of the engine - hope I'm wrong!!! Ambush is therefore needed.

What ever it is you are talking about I am supporting it...

Mord.

[Mord]

... ..... I am way tooo drunk

[Mord]

...man. beer. Gah!

[sburke]

...man. beer. Gah!

Okay over to the corner with you, yeah right next to the bucket, just in case.

[Vinnart]

I don't think "covered arc" + "hide" works very well for an ambush - troops that are hiding don't spot too well. It's mainly a problem in WEGO (which i only play) - where you have to wait a whole minute, in a situation where the enemy moves into a units covered arc, but isn't spotted (because your men are hiding, and have reduced spotting) - before you can unhide them a fire, by which time it may be too late, it's compounded by the fact that you can't check LOS - because this is measured from your still hiding unit I believe this is because WEGO is RT with pauses, and is therefore a limitation of the engine - hope I'm wrong!!! Ambush is therefore needed.

From my experience I agree hide + cover arc is not good. I thought it was in my limited use first in CMSF in single player. I found out otherwise the hard way. My very first PBEM I had to set an ambush and tried hide + arc and, it was a disaster! Short cover arcs give good concealment + better reaction times, and spotting ability alone rather than with hide. Giving a slow move the last few meters usually sets them prone for the ambush. From there set the arc, and you should have an effective ambush in spotting, and firing first. TERRAIN concealment has much to do with success. Many the time I have had guys in buildings with very small arcs, and was not spotted till enemy moved in to the arc.

[Michael Emrys]

The Breda's a good MG, good enough for the LRDG.

John, could you mean this? I know the modello 35 was very popular with the LRDG as well as a number of other Commonwealth formations.

Michael

[futon river crossing]

... ..... I am way tooo drunk

Gave up 10 years ago - and don't regret it - and no more drunken posts :eek:

[futon river crossing]

From my experience I agree hide + cover arc is not good. I thought it was in my limited use first in CMSF in single player. I found out otherwise the hard way. My very first PBEM I had to set an ambush and tried hide + arc and, it was a disaster! Short cover arcs give good concealment + better reaction times, and spotting ability alone rather than with hide. Giving a slow move the last few meters usually sets them prone for the ambush. From there set the arc, and you should have an effective ambush in spotting, and firing first. TERRAIN concealment has much to do with success. Many the time I have had guys in buildings with very small arcs, and was not spotted till enemy moved in to the arc.

That's an awful lot of micromanagement !! - an ambush command would streamline things - i think CMBN suffers from far too much micromanagement - which for me reduces the enjoyment of the game.

[Mord]

Gave up 10 years ago - and don't regret it - and no more drunken posts :eek:

I read your first post like about five times last night...and it makes way more sense now. LOL.

Man, my head feels like a volley ball.

Mord.

[Redwolf]

The other difference was that once the Ambush was triggered, the unit was free to engage at will. With covered arcs a well disciplined unit will stop firing once the enemy retreats out of the arc (or when there aren't any targets left). Depending on how your arc is set, this can mean your ambushing unit will open with a small fusilade as soon as the first unit crosses into the arc, then fall silent, while loads of poential targets mill about just beyond the arc.

That behaviour is easy enough to factor into your plans in order to get the behaviour you want, but you do need to realise that you need to factor it in.

It just isn't a "one size fits all" situation. Like many other things the proper way to solve this is through SOPs where the player can say in advance what happens when a certain event comes true. In the case of ambush versus covered arc there should be a SOP "free fire after firing" which would release the cover arc once triggered if the player said so.

SOPs of that kind are becoming more and more important as real-time play becomes more popular and as (hopefully) there will be more flexibility in how long a turn is.

I can repeat the TacOps screenshot if somebody is fuzzy on the subject.

[WriterJWA]

It just isn't a "one size fits all" situation. Like many other things the proper way to solve this is through SOPs where the player can say in advance what happens when a certain event comes true. In the case of ambush versus covered arc there should be a SOP "free fire after firing" which would release the cover arc once triggered if the player said so.

SOPs of that kind are becoming more and more important as real-time play becomes more popular and as (hopefully) there will be more flexibility in how long a turn is.

I can repeat the TacOps screenshot if somebody is fuzzy on the subject.

I'd love to have definable SOP's!!

[sburke]

Not a feature, but a fortification - trenches that look like drainage ditches for Market Garden. Would resolve trying to create 8m wide drainage ditches at least. As to movement along them, we will likely have to get creative, but we were gonna have to do that anyway.

Hmm there is a thought.. Can they be modded?

[gunnersman]

1) Hit Decals

2) Flares

3) In-game gamma settings or a toggle to visually brighten the night missions.

What!?!?!? No tracer bounce in that list?!?!? I'm disappointed in you Elmar.

[Tactical Wargamer]

WEGO/replay for MP games......

[Childress]

Not a feature, but a fortification - trenches that look like drainage ditches for Market Garden. Would resolve trying to create 8m wide drainage ditches at least. As to movement along them, we will likely have to get creative, but we were gonna have to do that anyway.

Hmm there is a thought.. Can they be modded?

Yes! But maybe without FOW properties.

[akd]

Not a feature, but a fortification - trenches that look like drainage ditches for Market Garden. Would resolve trying to create 8m wide drainage ditches at least. As to movement along them, we will likely have to get creative, but we were gonna have to do that anyway.

Hmm there is a thought.. Can they be modded?

Drainage ditches and other such channel features would be part of the map, not a fortification with Fog of War, just like they were in CMSF (but failed as fortifications for that very reason).

[sburke]

Yes! But maybe without FOW properties.

true I really have no idea how difficult this is or not, but if the basic structure w/o any of the additional FOW overhead was included as a wall type could the graphics be changed to make it look like a ditch or would the way it is created still have the above ground projection? Heck I may not care, I am gonna have to try this on my Veghel map just to get an idea what it could feel like.

edit - there would be so many, who would need FOW? You'd be faced with too many of them to try and cover them all with fire. It would be like trying to shoot up every single hedgerow in Normandy... okay maybe not that extreme, but you get the idea.

[MikeyD]

CMSF sunken ditches (I like to call them 'ditches' instead of trenches) had the double game mechanics problem of lacking FOW and of sinking into the terrain grid, negatively impacting framerate and processing speed. Brain-in-a-jar Charles was very pleased to get rid of them for CMBN and it would take something downright miraculous for him to reconsider. For every three reason we had for keeping them he had six for discarding them. Oh, and he's the boss too, which kind'a tilts the argument in his favor.

[Michael Emrys]

I'd love to have definable SOP's!!

Heh. This is something I've been advocating for nigh on to 15 years. It would be a wonderful tool in the hands of the player and I've never figured out exactly why BFC is so opposed to it. There might have been some problem with programming it within the old CMx1 system, but if later versions were written with it in mind, it's hard to see how that would continue to be a problem. And it's certainly not unrealistic as they would represent a normal part of the orders given to a unit. How closely they would follow such orders is of course an iffy proposition depending on many factors, but we already have such iffy propositions in the game.

Michael

[sburke]

CMSF sunken ditches (I like to call them 'ditches' instead of trenches) had the double game mechanics problem of lacking FOW and of sinking into the terrain grid, negatively impacting framerate and processing speed. Brain-in-a-jar Charles was very pleased to get rid of them for CMBN and it would take something downright miraculous for him to reconsider. For every three reason we had for keeping them he had six for discarding them. Oh, and he's the boss too, which kind'a tilts the argument in his favor.

LOL yes I hear it is good to be King - (hey potboy, get over here!)

Okay maybe trenches it is. Beats trying to do 8m wide ones. Will have to play around with them and maybe some modder who doesn't make stuff look like it was drawn with crayola (ie me) might take an interest.

[Childress]

Heh. This is something I've been advocating for nigh on to 15 years. It would be a wonderful tool in the hands of the player and I've never figured out exactly why BFC is so opposed to it.

Because they feel the game is complicated enough as is? This is an enhancement they seem to prefer to implement by refining the TacAI. They've learned when to say 'no'.

[Vanir Ausf B]

Heh. This is something I've been advocating for nigh on to 15 years. It would be a wonderful tool in the hands of the player and I've never figured out exactly why BFC is so opposed to it.l

It so happens I asked Steve this question and he essentially said that SOPs aren't in the game because when he played TacOps he never bothered with using the SOPs. Kinda blew my mind.