Tigrii Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 A few days ago in a PBEM game I witnessed the following incident. My PzIV fired a shell at nearly point-blank range at a Sherman, only to have it explode against the side turret with no effect. Upon reviewing the turn, by looking at the PzIV's ammo state as it fired I was able to confirm my suspicion that it fired an HE shell (with no less than 41 AP shells available). Why on earth would this happen? I know CM doesn't model what type of round is loaded at the moment, you can just magically fire whatever round is appropriate. Also, it's not like it was a King Tiger or something where AP would have no chance and you might as well go for external damage, it was a lowly Sherman 75(early) at close range with the side turret exposed. So what gives? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sburke Posted February 5, 2012 Share Posted February 5, 2012 A few days ago in a PBEM game I witnessed the following incident. My PzIV fired a shell at nearly point-blank range at a Sherman, only to have it explode against the side turret with no effect. Upon reviewing the turn, by looking at the PzIV's ammo state as it fired I was able to confirm my suspicion that it fired an HE shell (with no less than 41 AP shells available). Why on earth would this happen? I know CM doesn't model what type of round is loaded at the moment, you can just magically fire whatever round is appropriate. Also, it's not like it was a King Tiger or something where AP would have no chance and you might as well go for external damage, it was a lowly Sherman 75(early) at close range with the side turret exposed. So what gives? Check crew experience, maybe just a dunce at the controls 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 I have no idea how the game simulates ammo already in the gun... But, in RL, IIRC the crew would fire whatever was in the gun (as it was faster than replacing it) and then load AP or whatever. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzr_leader Posted February 6, 2012 Share Posted February 6, 2012 you're lucky it wasn't paint. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GI Adelscott Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 As the commander hatch is open probably the pzIV's crew thought that it was better idea to kill the commander with a well placed HE round instead to try make a nice hole on sherman's plate. I don't know how the AI manages those calculations, but probably pzIV had more chance to get a positive result in this way, in game terms I mean. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Canadian Cat Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Do not dismiss HE as not dangerous to tanks. In a recent game I have an AT gun on the side towards the back of a hill covering the approach to the opposite hill. That made it pretty hard for the attacker to deal with. After some time the gun had used up all its AP rounds. My opponent sent a Sherman skirting around the edge of the trees on the hill to attack the gun. All the gun had left was HE and with the Sherman really close they hit it point blank with an HE round and took out the Sherman. It is a smoking wreck. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sublime Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Yeah. I've had a lot of experience with HE vs tanks. you can do a lot with it. In desperate times Ive ordered 60mm or 81mm strikes on German panthers. Ive immobilized them before with such action. Never gotten luckier however. I've killed marders with mortar fire. I love using Priests, and often I engage enemy armor with HE after their one or two HEAT rounds are expended. It depends on the range and a lot of other variables, but 105mm seems to be big enough to really jar the tank crew around a lot, a few hits and they usually panic, plus the tank will always take pretty heavy optics, tracks, etc damage. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 I have no idea how the game simulates ammo already in the gun... But, in RL, IIRC the crew would fire whatever was in the gun (as it was faster than replacing it) and then load AP or whatever. Oft posted about. The game uses a schrodinger gun. The gun is loaded when the game starts and is reloaded, as soon as the unit can, after each shot. The ammo loaded is NOT specified. The ammo type is determined at the moment of firing. This gets around all sorts of ugliness. Search for the extensive threads on this topic. Regarding this specific instance, I have no idea if firing HE at that target - in those specific set of circumstances - was a good idea or not. As noted, HE shells could penetrate quite well at certain ranges with catastrophic results. Then again, they could be harmless. The TC sticking up may've contributed to the choice of ammo. What was the range? Specific vehicle models? Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurra Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Aah, have had that experience with a StuG firing at 50 meters range. It fired. Fired again. And again. Three times in a row. All times hitting the Sherman. Only HE. Plenty of AP. Disaster followed. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Any savegames showing this? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 The game doesn't model what in the breech right now and crew quality doesn't come into play. What the game models is that it simply figured that the HE shell can penetrate the side of the Sherman turret and used it to preserve AP. TOO BAD it didn't work out. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted February 8, 2012 Share Posted February 8, 2012 Do not dismiss HE as not dangerous to tanks. I agree. I've had great luck with HE from 8" and 14" guns. Also airplane bombs are highly effective against tanks. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gurra Posted February 9, 2012 Share Posted February 9, 2012 Aah, have had that experience with a StuG firing at 50 meters range. It fired. Fired again. And again. Three times in a row. All times hitting the Sherman. Only HE. Plenty of AP. Disaster followed. Any savegames showing this? Unfortunately no, as it was a H2H game. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tigrii Posted February 10, 2012 Author Share Posted February 10, 2012 I still think this doesn't make any sense. The theory that "HE can sometimes be effective against tanks, and besides, the crew wanted to save AP", overlooks two things. One, no matter how effective HE might be against tanks, surely AP by its very nature is MORE effective against tanks, so its a moot point. Second, as I mentioned in the original post there were about 40 rounds of AP left, so conserving ammo could not have been a huge priority given an enemy tank ~25 meters away. Gunning for the exposed TC doesn't explain it either. Sure an HE shell could kill the TC, but an AP shell could kill anyone and everyone on board and KO the tank while its at it. It seems beyond dispute that a brain as opposed to an AI routine would conclude that AP was the correct choice, and the question then becomes, what went wrong with the AI routine? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Okay, I've gathered that this has occurred at two close ranges: 25m and 50m. It seems both (?) times this has been seen it's been a German 75mm firing at a Sherman. What type of German 75mm? (Which "L"?) What type of Sherman? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I still think this doesn't make any sense. The theory that "HE can sometimes be effective against tanks, and besides, the crew wanted to save AP", overlooks two things. One, no matter how effective HE might be against tanks, surely AP by its very nature is MORE effective against tanks, so its a moot point. Second, as I mentioned in the original post there were about 40 rounds of AP left, so conserving ammo could not have been a huge priority given an enemy tank ~25 meters away. Gunning for the exposed TC doesn't explain it either. Sure an HE shell could kill the TC, but an AP shell could kill anyone and everyone on board and KO the tank while its at it. It seems beyond dispute that a brain as opposed to an AI routine would conclude that AP was the correct choice, and the question then becomes, what went wrong with the AI routine? Quite. We can debate all we want about the effectiveness of HE against armoured targets but I find it hard to believe that the AI is progammed to make assesments like that. It's a tank. If you've got AP then that's what you fire at it. That's what they gave you all that AP for. Especially if you're just a simple-minded pixeltruppen who just happens to be in charge of a virtual tank or AT asset capable of firing a virtual AP round. I wouldn't even have thought that it would behave any differently if ammo were low. There's an enemy tank 50m away. Sounds like it might be a good time to use the last of the AP. If it looks like a bug, sounds like a bug and smells like a bug then I would suggest that it probably is a bug. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redwolf Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 I still think this doesn't make any sense. The theory that "HE can sometimes be effective against tanks, and besides, the crew wanted to save AP", overlooks two things. I didn't want to defend this. I merely mentioned how CM games work. This is what it was always like. Unless there is plenty of AP ammo HE is used if it can penetrate the target. This is only supposed to happen if the target can actually be penetrated by the HE round. The game doesn't think "oh maybe I damage the TC or somefink", the game's goal is to penetrate the armour. The problem we are facing here is that although the Sherman's side armour is on average penetratable by the German 75mm HE round (which leads the StuG to pick HE), the turret side is not. The way that the 3D model and general geometry in the terrain determine which part of the target is hit means that the turret is hit more often than it's size would imply statistically, and then you end up with a whole bunch of non-penetrations. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 Quite. We can debate all we want about the effectiveness of HE against armoured targets but I find it hard to believe that the AI is progammed to make assesments like that. It's a tank. If you've got AP then that's what you fire at it. That's what they gave you all that AP for. Especially if you're just a simple-minded pixeltruppen who just happens to be in charge of a virtual tank or AT asset capable of firing a virtual AP round. I wouldn't even have thought that it would behave any differently if ammo were low. There's an enemy tank 50m away. Sounds like it might be a good time to use the last of the AP. If it looks like a bug, sounds like a bug and smells like a bug then I would suggest that it probably is a bug. Well, I've asked some pretty specific questions and not gotten any answers. That doesn't help track anything down. Bugs? Kill 'em! But, are you SURE it's a bug? Should a tank fire AP or HE at a halftrack? How about at SPA? What about open-topped SPG's? How about enemy armored cars? What about trucks? What about thinly armored enemy tanks? It's a progression. Of sorts. If AP were the only ammunition used against each of those targets, players would rightfully scream. A solid penetrator AP or AP with explosive filler? Or, as has happened here, HE? The goal is to find where the progression doesn't work. The AI is programmed to choose the "right" ammunition. The best ammunition against a halftrack is NOT the best ammunition against a tank. Usually. So.... What ranges? (I guess 25m and 50m based on implicit/explicit statements above.) What SPECIFIC German gun? (Muzzle energy matters. If not to you, then to the AI.) What SPECIFIC Sherman? (Armor thickness, cast/rolled, angle, all matter.) What target aspect? Where is the firing unit in relation to the target? (Glancing impact angle or directly to the side?) Etc., etc. Before you say "this is wrong!", you need to define which "this" is "this". Hence, a bit of testing, first. So, toss out a bit of info so this beta guy can use this as an excuse to duck out of some home chores. Ken 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
akd Posted February 10, 2012 Share Posted February 10, 2012 PzIV should not fire HE at another tank in any situation except being completely out of AP. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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