Praetori Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Well this is a first. I never thought much of the PzVI in CMBN. Until now. I had half a Battalion of Shermans (roughly two companies). Mostly M4A3 75's and some M4 105's on a pretty open battlefield with ranges up to 1500m. It was a pretty simple setup with me against a friend (who's pretty inexperienced with CMBN) and we played in RT. I used my points on armor and arty and it turned out that he could afford a platoon of Tigers and the Coy Leaders tank and XO. And some recon (Aufklärung platoon). And he told me something along the line of "I've seen that Tiger tanks were pretty kick ass in the war" so I picked them and then the points were gone so I bought some infantry. After pouring down hurt in the form of Rockets and Howitzers I climbed the crest covering my deployment-zone en masse with dismounted jeep scouts peaking through the dust/smoke from the arty still covering most of the battlefield. Boom, boom, boom. My first platoon just went down in flames as the rest of the Shermans brought their guns on the Tigers looming through the smoke. Ping, ping ping followed shortly thereafter by more booms as the Tigers just shrugged everything off and killed my flanking attempt with 9 tanks. The only kills I managed was a crew bail after a M4 105 put 4 rounds on a Tiger and another Tiger rotated to face my flanking platoon and got hit in the rear by a lone Sherman hiding behind a barn. It ended in total humiliation with me having ONE tank left while he still had scores (as it felt). Well I wouldn't settle for that so we took another round on a similar map. This time I took air support and less arty while loading up on the same amount of tanks. This time he threw a few panthers in the mix (and thereby managed to get a few extra tanks for the same points). It ended just as badly as the first time although the P47's busted 4 tigers and my Shermans managed to finish off the two Panthers before they died or, and this I've not seen often, bailed completely working tanks and ran off. :mad: I still cannot understand how the combat could be so one sided. Sure the M4 75's are a different breed compared to the 76's but there was a complete wall of shells zeroing in on those Tigers. Some of them must have taken upwards of 20 hits and they just kept on going. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John1966 Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Open battlefield with ranges up to 1500m. Doesn't really matter how many Shermans you have against a platoon of Tigers in those circumstances. If you see a Tiger in the distance you just stay out of its LOF (if you can) until you get close and preferably behind it. If you can't then you're going to lose. I wouldn't attempt any long range stuff against them. They'll win. I'm just going from CM experience as opposed to any groggy knowledge but the result you described seems like what I'd expect. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phil stanbridge Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 I had to laugh when I read your post - sorry. I can just imagine how you feel, especially twice As John1966 said, it's going to be really difficult on that sort of terrain over those distances. Best bet is flanking - send several scattered groups of tanks left and right and use plenty of smoke. Those 75's aren't going to cause any trouble until you can get close and behind. The Tiger turrets are quite slow compared to the Shermans, so you could get lucky if you are quick enough. I had a Tiger knocked out by the first shot of a 57mm AT gun, so they can die quickly too. It just depends on the round and how close you are. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wombat_of_war Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 ouch.. 1500 m of open country side facing a platoon of tigers :-| thats like playing sherman wack a mole. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YankeeDog Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 If you want to read about what it takes to stop a Battalion of Tigers in open country, just read up on Kursk. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZPB II Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Lay down linear smoke missions in front of the Tiger crest and rush them. If a Sherman spots a Tiger at long range, order it to shoot a smoke round at it. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt Schultz Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 There is only one way for a 75mm Sherman to kill a Tiger. Watch the master at work. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Erwin Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 Notice how Clint's Sherman can crash through multiple walls etc with NO IMMOBILIZATION. 'Nuff said... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Praetori Posted December 7, 2011 Author Share Posted December 7, 2011 Lay down linear smoke missions in front of the Tiger crest and rush them. If a Sherman spots a Tiger at long range, order it to shoot a smoke round at it. Well that might work against the AI but my human opponent was maneuvering in and out of the smoke. Maybe more experienced crews with better motivation would have done the trick now that I know how truly fearsome the PzVI are to the pixeltruppen. Abandoning perfectly fine tanks :mad: It's a bit disturbing that other crews can't take over. Platoon leaders I would imagine would boot another crew to get back in the fight in their tank. In previous games I've had more M4A3 76 and those seemed efficient enough at 800m so I thought this would be a stroll in the park when I saw he had Tigers (as there couldn't be many of them). About the distance. The closest Tiger was at barely 600m and apparently nailed 10 Shermans. It was immobilized and everything was shot to pieces except for the gun and crew but it survived. Now I've heard the stories and read the books but nothing in CMBN has come close prior to this experience. Given the right maps and circumstances the Tigers are just plain awesome opponents in even in the hands of an inexperienced player. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hoolaman Posted December 7, 2011 Share Posted December 7, 2011 There's a reason the heavy panzer battalions were used as fire brigades. They couldn't be everywhere but wherever they went they could make a decisive impact on the battle. Often in CM we come across just one Tiger which can be almost trivial to deal with. A proper formation of Tigers mutually supporting each other is a fearsome foe. That sounds like a pretty fun game. A hopeless case, but playing red in CMSF taught me that sometimes it's fun trying. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sand digger Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 In one battle defending against the AI my single Panther and the infantry only destroyed 17 Shermans in total. If you keep the Panther front on it survives very nicely even at 200 meters or less against Shermans. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Now you know why the allies had "Tiger fright". (BTW, it took for WWII tankers to get to the top of the army command to get that lesson fixed: Creighton Abrams and the M1 tank. Great armor, great gun sure beats hoards of cheap tanks. Usually.) 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Peregrine Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 They won't beat hoard of cheap tanks that have air support and operational initiative. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
c3k Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 True: my parenthetical comment referred to M1 tanks. Part of US doctrine is to ensure air superiority. Regarding Tigers and Shermans: who won in the end? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankster65 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 There is only one way for a 75mm Sherman to kill a Tiger. Watch the master at work. You know, for a movie that was basically a comedy situated in WW2, you got to hand it to the person in charge of historical uniforms, vehicles, weapons in the movie. Everything looks so authentic. For the grognards out there...did you see the divisional insignia on that Tiger tank? Which formation does that tank belong? 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abneo3sierra Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 not really a grog, but it is the 1.SS "Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler" 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JyriErik Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 not really a grog, but it is the 1.SS "Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler" Typo (unless Hitler had a love regiment). Should be Leibstandarte. This is one my peeves. I've read articles in print where "lieb" is used and for anyone who knows German it just grates on you to see such a faux pas in the meaning of the name. Jyri 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
abneo3sierra Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Thanks lol,and I actually AM German, making it much worse haha. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cymru Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 You know, for a movie that was basically a comedy situated in WW2, you got to hand it to the person in charge of historical uniforms, vehicles, weapons in the movie. Everything looks so authentic. For the grognards out there...did you see the divisional insignia on that Tiger tank? Which formation does that tank belong? For a comedy, a lot of people died in that movie. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BletchleyGeek Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Typo (unless Hitler had a love regiment). Should be Leibstandarte. Hahaha, a whole regiment of "warm brothers", indeed :-) To the OP: you just experienced what Rotmistrov's Mech Corps tank brigades did at Prokhorovka. And your tanks had worse guns :-) Anyways, that sounded to me as a fun fight. Could make a good scenario, where three (or four) times as many points are awarded for each Tiger in the bag as are awarded for a Sherman. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Steiner14 Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Don't forget, that only 17% of German tanks were lost due to allied tanks in France. Therefore if you want a statistically more accurate result of a won allied battle, give the Alliies 200% - 300% more purchasing power, buy less tanks but buy air support until the sky is dark and then try again... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StellarRat Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Make sure to use 155 mm artillery against tanks. Don't buy 105 mm. 155's have a good chance of immobilizing a tank. 105's aren't big enough and Anything bigger than 155 is too slow. 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amizaur Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Notice how Clint's Sherman can crash through multiple walls etc with NO IMMOBILIZATION. 'Nuff said... Notice, that when the Sherman fired the first round (paint filled one) he even haven't finished rotating it's turret yet to aim the gun at the Tiger . Same as it happens in CMBN at a times 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Don't forget, that only 17% of German tanks were lost due to allied tanks in France. Therefore if you want a statistically more accurate result of a won allied battle, give the Alliies 200% - 300% more purchasing power, buy less tanks but buy air support until the sky is dark and then try again... it seems that there were even less lost to direct airpower - somewhere in the 10%. most of the tanks were either abandoned or destroyed by the crew. which in return can be caused by missing spare parts, missing time to retrieve a vehicle or indirect effect of airpower (interdiction). so to buy airpower shouldn't help either ... 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
winkelried Posted December 8, 2011 Share Posted December 8, 2011 Make sure to use 155 mm artillery against tanks. Don't buy 105 mm. 155's have a good chance of immobilizing a tank. 105's aren't big enough and Anything bigger than 155 is too slow. that's my 155mm ATG from CMBO love this approach too :cool: will be even more important in the battle of the bulge :D 0 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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