c3k

What if the battle lasts longer? And you can get an hq near the broken units and rally them? Then, if they'd evaporated, you'd have lost them.
 
The disappearing surrendered men simulate that they've been captured and escorted back (or just told to march that way).
 
Laying in the open may not be the best behavior. But, you're assuming knowledge of how the endgame will play if you want them to disappear at a certain time.
 
(Or, put an exit zone on the map. I'd think they'd run out, through it, if they get too demoralized.)
 
Ken

What if the battle lasts longer? And you can get an hq near the broken units and rally them? Then, if they'd evaporated, you'd have lost them.
 
The disappearing surrendered men simulate that they've been captured and escorted back (or just told to march that way).
 
Laying in the open may not be the best behavior. But, you're assuming knowledge of how the endgame will play if you want them to disappear at a certain time.
 
(Or, put an exit zone on the map. I'd think they'd run out, through it, if they get too demoralized.)
 
Ken

Looking forward to trying this out!

Thanks.

Yeah, tracer for canister is not correct...but it looks cool.

Without triggers the designer has to use timers. It was far better on defense, with timed reinforcements moving up, than on attack.

Well, it is inevitable that it does so, at some point. (This thread going OT...)
 
Tanks cost money.
 
Better tanks cost more money.
 
Money comes from economic activity. Economic activity (and the money squeezed from it) is, to a large extent, determined by centralized governments (at least, that's how it is working lately).
 
The Tiger II was a better tank than most...once it reached the battlefield. But the Germans could not build many of them, nor adequately support the ones they had. It was too expensive for them. Plus, thanks to the pressure exerted on them, they could never afford to shut down the PzIV facilities to switch over to something better. That's the effect of economics and how it filters down to the battlefield.
 
The current "run what you brung" attitude on modern large scale war may or may not be correct. However, that does drive some production figures and planning.
 
The US military (US Army and USMC) have about 8,100 delivered Abrams of various models. That's a lot of tanks. Not all of them are M1A2 SEPv2. But they all could be upgraded to that level relatively cheaply. Supposedly they cost around $7 million (that seems low to me and is probably an old number).
 
 
The latest figure I found is that the TOTAL Russian economy produced about $2 Trillion in goods and services. The US was listed as $16 Trillion. 
 
The cost to compete is prohibitive. As good as the Armata may be, there cannot be the numbers needed to seriously compete with US dominance without destroying the Russian economy... (Of course, that "US dominance" is a paper exercise. Tanks in the US do not have any battlefield influence were there to be a fight in Europe...unless the tanks get shipped.)
 
Then there are the M1A3 rumours...
 
 
Economics do play into it. That brings geopolitics into it. 
 
 
Meantime, I'm very curious to see what this new tank may look like and what innovations it brings.

The game has a very steep learning curve. Once you get past that, it is very intuitive.
 
The best tactical approach to use would be to try to be as realistic as possible. If you wouldn't risk crossing an open field in real life, don't order your pixeltruppen to do so. (Unless they beg you to allow them to prove their bravery. Then a simple nod of assent should suffice.)
 
Find one SMALL battle (demo is fine, or the first "Training" battle in the CMBN game), and play it REPEATEDLY. Focus on fundementals; unit orders, coordination, stacked orders, etc.
 
Good luck!

I am no longer starting to have my doubts. I think artillery vs. buildings is nerfed.

All the rest of this post assumes the artillery is NOT fuzed for an airburst.

Given the design of artillery shells, a pointy chunk of metal weighing from 35 lbs (120mm mortar) to 97 lbs (155mm howitzer shell) it is almost guaranteed to penetrate any non-fortified roof. In fact, one could argue that it's almost as if they were DESIGNED to penetrate things like overhead cover.

I've built many a roof... In the U.S. using plywood/2 by's. I'm sure the Syrians use something more concrete...like CONCRETE. I've travelled throughout the mid-East; I am NOT a building expert, yet, I doubt any roof there is designed to stop artillery projectiles.

Am I wrong? (I am quite willing to be proven wrong. If, for example, the various regimes enforce strict building codes, a la West Germany's, in an attempt to fortify ALL civilian structures, then their roof's MAY be pretty tough. Is this so?)

Now, you may scoff at my concern over this, but wait until Normandy. Won't you be wailing when your US artillery park cannot penetrate a thatched roof over a German MG42 team. So there.

Thanks,
Ken

Gents,

Has anyone else given thought to the seeming lack of effectiveness of artillery against units inside buildings? I just got through POINT targeting a building with 105mm, GENERAL target type, MEDIUM intensity, SHORT duration. That 2 story building got hammered. Yet, only 1 enemy soldier was wounded. Yes, he was in the upper floor, as was his buddy - who remained unharmed.

This is not the first time this has happened. I like the fact that building interiors are not explicitly modelled, but if your building is taking MANY 105mm hits, fuzed to penetrate, um, wouldn't that wreak a bit more mayhem?

Like the owl and the tootsie pop; how may artillery rounds does it take to get to the center of a building? (And what happens when they do?)

I'd think a single 105mm HE round would render everyone hors de combat, if it landed in the same room/building, let alone about a dozen. The same for 120mm and 155mm rounds.

Thoughts?

Thanks,
Ken

LOL, and with that statement, the interest in this thread evaporates...

LOL. I ran some tests, years ago. I took about a 100 tanks, dismounted their crews. Then, I ran them through sniper alley. Next, I sorted the surviving crew based on which crewmember(s) had been removed. I then remounted the crews. (Just for grins, I really, really, really want anyone to dismount 100 crews, run them around, and then try to figure out who goes where. No, there is no "tank 7/crew 7" logic.)
 
This gave me 100 tanks with various crew positions empty. Most had lost 1. Some had lost 2. A few, 3.
 
Then I put the tanks through their paces.
 
Then I repeated the test a couple dozen times starting with a new batch of 100 tanks each time.
 
The game did a very nice job, IMO, of prioritizing positions. Especially if you imagine the crew is an organic group, not robots.
 
Some tweaking may be nice in certain configurations, but I shudder at the thought of replicating that test...
 
Ken

LOL. I ran some tests, years ago. I took about a 100 tanks, dismounted their crews. Then, I ran them through sniper alley. Next, I sorted the surviving crew based on which crewmember(s) had been removed. I then remounted the crews. (Just for grins, I really, really, really want anyone to dismount 100 crews, run them around, and then try to figure out who goes where. No, there is no "tank 7/crew 7" logic.)
 
This gave me 100 tanks with various crew positions empty. Most had lost 1. Some had lost 2. A few, 3.
 
Then I put the tanks through their paces.
 
Then I repeated the test a couple dozen times starting with a new batch of 100 tanks each time.
 
The game did a very nice job, IMO, of prioritizing positions. Especially if you imagine the crew is an organic group, not robots.
 
Some tweaking may be nice in certain configurations, but I shudder at the thought of replicating that test...
 
Ken

LOL. I ran some tests, years ago. I took about a 100 tanks, dismounted their crews. Then, I ran them through sniper alley. Next, I sorted the surviving crew based on which crewmember(s) had been removed. I then remounted the crews. (Just for grins, I really, really, really want anyone to dismount 100 crews, run them around, and then try to figure out who goes where. No, there is no "tank 7/crew 7" logic.)
 
This gave me 100 tanks with various crew positions empty. Most had lost 1. Some had lost 2. A few, 3.
 
Then I put the tanks through their paces.
 
Then I repeated the test a couple dozen times starting with a new batch of 100 tanks each time.
 
The game did a very nice job, IMO, of prioritizing positions. Especially if you imagine the crew is an organic group, not robots.
 
Some tweaking may be nice in certain configurations, but I shudder at the thought of replicating that test...
 
Ken

Gotta go, so not right now. (Away from gaming rig.)
 
But my high score unit was Blue 2, with 42 kills.
 
I think there's a bit of "kill-bug". My Red Jav unit killed 2 vehicles but shows "No Enemy".
 
 
This has been fun. I've laughed at almost every turn. Michael/DMS is a great one to play. Start pestering him with pbem requests!

In summation:
 
First, Michael (DMS) has been a great opponent. Thank you for an engaging pbem.
 
The game? Well, I'm in hospital, with a buxom nurse, and DMS is cowering in the corner of an abandoned building. Where would you rather be? Yeah, me too: I win.
 
Just kidding! C'mon. Sheesh. By the rules as written, this must be a draw. Neither side got their leader on the bridge.
 
Oh, IanL? Don't make me laugh! Really? You thought he would count? Pshaw. I realized he needed motivation, so I gave him the "mission" as a bit of a carrot.
 
 
In a tactical sense, DMS must get the tip of the hat. His early smoke and mid-game arty were inspired. I merely threw men into the fight.
 
 
Thanks for watching.
 
Ken

Turn 10, final thoughts...
 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
So...Red 2 sweeps hard to my left. Blue 2 and 3 advance, but Blue 2 first are targets Kornet 2. Blue 1 area targets the DMS HQ for a bit, then moves to the shore. My sniper team rushes past White Squad to gain the corner near the 4-way intersection at the bridge. Eyes to protect the right of Blue 2...
 
I hope you like me showing the detailed paths for Blue 3 and Red B. Pausing, facing, and movement speeds need to be considered when moving into ambush territory. Red B may get some (more) splash damage from any APS firings, so that'll be something to be cognizant of.
 
In another turn or two, if nothing unexpected shows up, I'll be in position to rush some men across the bridge. Then, when I destroy whoever machineguns those men down, I'll rush some MORE men across the bridge. I expect the second effort to be successful. Then an Abrams (or two) will follow.
 
Ken out.

Turn 7, final
 
 
 

 
 
 
Summary
 
 
Every move worked.
 
My Abrams on the left have Area Target orders (30 or 45 seconds) against Red Lodge. Those Russkies are Gone-skis. White Squad moves up to assault RPG Hut and help extricate Red A Team.
 
Doomvee has 45 second Area Target against Kornet 2 (my right). I just want them neutralized for now. FO is ginning up some HE fire on Kornet 1 (who I suspect fired at the Abrams which got the APS intercept).
 
There are 5 locations critical to winning. The bridge itself, much like the dot in the center of the "5" on a die, and the two areas on either side of the road and each side of the bridge. DMS has gained both locations on my side, and also the one on the far side. I'll clear Red Lodge/Red Hut, then move Red 2 up to clear the far shore. Red Squad/White Squad and the Abrams will clear my left, then use firepower against the far shore.
 
After that, a liberal dose of smoke, some infantry across the bridge, and the game is mine. Oh, I'll have IanL saunter across the bridge first, just in case there are any snipers. That's what he's there for.
 
 
Edited to add: Funny. I just noticed that my FO is missing in that picture, above. With myself selected, ALL units should be highlighted. Hmm, I wonder if they just died and I missed it?

Turn 8
 
23:00 to 22:00
 
Rain falls mainly on the plains
 
Another photo dump. So much goodness, and just a little bit of sadness...
 

 

 

 

 

 
 

 
 

 

 

 

 
 
So, I lost a team. I'll just consider that a forward ammo dump location! Goodness awaits my next troops to get there. White B takes a hit. DMS has some more guys in RPG hut. White 2 will move and hose it down. DMS lost his BTR over there. When my Abrams demolished Red Lodge, it opened an LOS to the BTR. One round from the Abrams took care of that problem.
 
DMS' other bridgehead BTR will go away next turn. White 2 advances on RPG hut. Red 2 comes in from my right along the road. The forward-most Abrams will reverse to a good location with LOS to the BTR. It's a 3 way squeeze play. Like pushing on either side of a ripe zit, something's gonna burst.
 
The long-range sniper shot will just warn DMS that I've got eyes on out there. But I like the psychological impact it'll have. Fear will strike him to the core. He'll hide and think that the long road to the bridge is a just a road too far. I'll expect his surrender, then I'll refuse it! Bwah, ha, ha!
 
I've got 3 teams, 3 Brads, 3 Abrams, and some other stuff left. A bit more shifting and dodging, and I may be in good shape. (White 2 is MOST at risk, Red 2 second-most. Next turn will be interesting...again.)
 
Ken out.

Turn 9
 
22:00 to 21:00
 
The most intense minute I've ever participated in, other than that time in the Philippines...
 
The pix will not do it justice. There were autocannon firing constantly, missiles criss-crossing all over, booms and bombs going off front and back. A whole lotta fun. What follows is a pale imitation of what occurred.
 
Photo dump commence:
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
More...

But will the Jav maintain lock? Did the explosion throw off the gunner's aim? What was he aiming at, anyway???
 

 
 

 
 

 
^^^
Really: that screenie really shows what the game can do. The next one shows what an ATGM can do.
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
Meanwhile, now that the dueling Javelin and Kornet is done, let's look at the town...
 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 
What I totally did not take screenshot of was a battle near the bridge crossroads. "Battle" is a big strong. More like a massacre. I got DMS' infantry in the open in a 25mm chainsaw crossfire. Yeah, "chainsaw" not "chaingun". They dropped hard. His BTR retreated and is hiding, but I think I've rooted out most of his men on my side of the bridge. There was a lot going on...
 
One final...

Turn 9, finale...
 
 

 
 

 
 

 
Whether or not that HQ has DMS is immaterial. The icon stayed in its location, so no WIA/KIA. Shrug.
 
Next turn, Red 2 and White 2 are each laying area target fire on Kornet 1 or 2 (respectively). My Abrams are advancing...as they should. My Jav teams are changing their underwear and will rejoin the fight in several minutes.
 
DMS has 3 BTR's left, one on my side...the rest by Tunguska hill. My infantry is too light on the ground. I need to get my 3 teams closer together. My orders are to lay down suppressive fire and gain a bit more elbow room.
 
Ken out...

SPECIAL: Turn 9 BONUS!
 
A little something from the crossroads zone. This was happening while the Kornets, Javs, and APS were flying about...
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

 
 

Turn 9, finale...
 
 

 
 

 
 

 
Whether or not that HQ has DMS is immaterial. The icon stayed in its location, so no WIA/KIA. Shrug.
 
Next turn, Red 2 and White 2 are each laying area target fire on Kornet 1 or 2 (respectively). My Abrams are advancing...as they should. My Jav teams are changing their underwear and will rejoin the fight in several minutes.
 
DMS has 3 BTR's left, one on my side...the rest by Tunguska hill. My infantry is too light on the ground. I need to get my 3 teams closer together. My orders are to lay down suppressive fire and gain a bit more elbow room.
 
Ken out...

Turn 4, which just keeps giving...
 
 
A few seconds after that last hit (which whited out my screens), I got another spot. Right near the BTR I killed last turn (or two ago)...
 

 
 
Yeah, no. Not a good idea. Never, never, never, always avoid previous kills. By definition, you're near a kill zone.
 

 
I almost felt bad about this one. Bwa-ha-ha!
 
3 kills, all by Blue 3. Positioning is key. One unit (like DMS' tank), can kill a lot of enemy.
 
 
So, a summary is in order:
 

 
 
A hard spot? Yes, that's where he is: between a rock and a hard place.
 

 
 
Hope it's a hit.
 
My plans:
 

 
The various desiderata near my HQ (blood circle) move towards the orange circle. I need to seal off that area. The Brad in the orange will move forward, slowly. He'll die, but may get some first.
 
The yellow circle needs some firepower. I'm moving IanL in there, and circling Blue 2 nearby (blue arrow). The other 2 blues move clear of the smoke and gain good vantage points. I hope they can isolate the river valley. I need to keep DMS from getting anymore squirters through.
 
My in-town squad has split. One team goes high and covers front, one team goes left and covers the road.
 
I get out of the Humvee deathtrap and follow in trace of my one surviving sniper team. I'll be on the bottom edge of that orange circle, leading from the rear.
 
Ken out.

Turn 4, which just keeps giving...
 
 
A few seconds after that last hit (which whited out my screens), I got another spot. Right near the BTR I killed last turn (or two ago)...
 

 
 
Yeah, no. Not a good idea. Never, never, never, always avoid previous kills. By definition, you're near a kill zone.
 

 
I almost felt bad about this one. Bwa-ha-ha!
 
3 kills, all by Blue 3. Positioning is key. One unit (like DMS' tank), can kill a lot of enemy.
 
 
So, a summary is in order:
 

 
 
A hard spot? Yes, that's where he is: between a rock and a hard place.
 

 
 
Hope it's a hit.
 
My plans:
 

 
The various desiderata near my HQ (blood circle) move towards the orange circle. I need to seal off that area. The Brad in the orange will move forward, slowly. He'll die, but may get some first.
 
The yellow circle needs some firepower. I'm moving IanL in there, and circling Blue 2 nearby (blue arrow). The other 2 blues move clear of the smoke and gain good vantage points. I hope they can isolate the river valley. I need to keep DMS from getting anymore squirters through.
 
My in-town squad has split. One team goes high and covers front, one team goes left and covers the road.
 
I get out of the Humvee deathtrap and follow in trace of my one surviving sniper team. I'll be on the bottom edge of that orange circle, leading from the rear.
 
Ken out.